My Book of Mormon

Still an admitted podcast addict here, the line up changes over time and I move with the topics that interest me. I have slowly moved away from Mormon podcasts. Except when this one came across my field of view the idea made me laugh. An non-believer completely unfamiliar with the LDS church is reading the Book of Mormon, cover to cover stopping to add his impressions along the way.

So many cling to it (I did) giving it merit that if read with any degree of critical thinking is not really merited. At its core the Book of Mormon is racist. Native Americans are dark because of a curse.

Ancient Isrealites came across the ocean and had epic battles of thousands to millions of  people with steel swords. Oh and horses, and elephants.... I don't know that it can be held up at all without severe cherry picking.

With some twitter exchanges with David and a few emails later, I was interviewed.

I think I deserve a cookie for condensing my 'story' into under 2 minutes.

My Book of Mormon Podcast, Episode 16 

Where in the world is Janie...

Oh blogging.... I can't give you up but I often let you down. My mom's story sits there looking at me. I wait for her next installment. She is quite a writer isn't she? I've had to assure people in my life that no she is not making it up. Those are real people, they are/were characters but very very real. I love how her words have brought the stories back to the surface and brought them to life. This past Sunday watching Cosmos -- The part where the ode to the written word of humans is highlighted I thought of my mom's story and was immensely grateful to her for putting it down for me and future family members to read.

So this is my "one year post" Yes its about religion so for those who are sensitive to that topic you can tune out now.

I can't believe I don't have a specific date for the 'last Sunday' we attended church. It was such a long time coming that when we actually stopped it was a non-event in a way. I have a few snapshots in my mind. Like the phone call about a ride to scouts. And me saying "We won't be doing that anymore."

Like for this week/month?

"No like ... ever."

A few last things related to callings dropped off and a few final emails. And then that was about it. The living room and bishop's office sit-downs had already occurred.

In honor of this post, I even looked up my very first email to friends from the nebulous beginning of my questioning:

So I am having a crisis of faith apparently and I think Kyle doesn't know what to say to me anymore - so I have been praying about it and I keep thinking I need to talk about it. Because 1) you are smarter and more learned in the scriptures than I am and 2) I don't think my mumblings would negatively affect your faith.

I've tried to kind of quell my own mumblings but my thoughts get circular on the subject and its frustrating. Then I thought I'd bring it up one day in person - but that may be awkward.  So anyway - its so cliche too - A LDS woman struggling with the topic of polygamy - but I am struggling whether it is cliche or not.

Specifically about Joseph Smith.

And it all really boils down to the fact that my whole life I did not know he had what? 30 wives - to this day I still don't know details - and its very precarious to try to research it online - you know what kind of stuff is online - which I have avoided. 

but through what I feel were honest sources (not anti) I did find more. And it was unsettling. Mainly this point - that he hid the marriage ( to a girl who was only 17) from Emma and quote :

Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage.  He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...”

those words keep echoing in my mind, 

So I tried to let it go and turn to the scriptures only and choked spiritually on section 132 like I have before.

I feel like I could overcome the topic if it didn't seem hidden by the church. How many members today if asked would only know Emma asJoseph's wife - do these other women not deserve recognition - they bore him children... If it was my daughter I would not want her swept under the rug.

I feel like I can't move away from this and when "Joseph Smith" is said in church I ache. I mean if a man did that in the ward right now he'd be ostracized.

on a similar vein - Men being able to be sealed after the death of their wife and women not being able to. I can't. get. over. it.

anyway. I am going to pray more and fast.

I am sorry - feel free to think I am crazy and tell me to take it up with the bishop. 

 Almost like the pain of childbirth, I can't really remember the pain I felt then. I know it was real and deep and agonizing. But I have none of that anymore.
In fact I've come very close to not writing this "anniversary" post at all. But I'm going to do it anyway... what's that they say about an unexamined life...

Questioning in earnest Jan of 2011, Open disaffection August 2012, Left sometime February 2013, Resignation (Names removed) June 2013

So where am I now? where are we as a family?

Me:

To answer the oft asked question... so what do you believe now? I took that question seriously when posed to me and I started really diving into what it was that excited me. I have found such a renewed interest in science, specifically scientific skepticism. Found the old copy of Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Dove headfirst into some great science podcasts and discovered to my delight there is a vast network of modern skeptics that work to promote the beauty of science and the benefit of critical thinking.

In the social adrift state after leaving the church my natural inclination was to turn to the many crunchy mom groups and natural birth community groups. I have found dear friends in those circles.

Sadly though, I noticed the trend emerge that many things were still dogma based. A set of "rules" that were incontrovertibly true to many in these circles. Science denial often trumps when certain topics come up (vaccines, homeopathy, diet extremism, etc.) I felt I had in a sense jumped from the frying pan into the fire.

One night at dinner with a very cool friend who felt somewhat abandoned by a birth network she was a part of for political reasons she said "I thought one day instead of making myself fit in a place, I'll make my own damn place."

Brilliance!  I was a person with a foot in two worlds. A new found skeptic thirsting for science but still the babywearing extended breastfeeder who had two babies born out of the hospital. So I worked to find my own place to fit. And I started the Crunchy Skeptics group on facebook. It has helped me come in contact with some absolutely marvelous people. I've made wonderful new friends and have some fantastic people as admins. Several scientists, doctors, nurses, journalists, midwives, birth professionals, and more offer support and advice in the group. We chew articles up and debate the real data. We know logical fallacies and point them out readily. I have found the convos there to be unparalleled to most online groups. I know its *just* facebook but its really been a fantastic way for me to focus my time and effort doing what I love: chatting.

Us as a family:

We are now attending Fellowship of Freethought (meets once a month). Always interesting topics and the kids learn some great things about science or the natural world in their classes.
We are hoping to send the oldest three to Camp Quest this summer and Kyle and I will be volunteers.
We are all super excited to be watching the remake of the Cosmos series. This fuels my Neil deGrasse Tyson fangirling which makes everyone only roll their eyes a little bit more at me.
We are going camping with new friends again this weekend.
Wow... Sundays actually spent relaxing. FOR. THE. WIN.


Over the past couple of years I have felt some of the most difficult pain ever. Only rivaled by the pain of losing my father and brother, and it even encompassed that pain as well. I am so glad to be on the other side of it. I think of people like my husband, my mother, my sister, my mother in law, my older children, a few friends who have just listened to me over and over and over again through all of this. For new friends that I never would have met if not for my path of great change. I am a better person for having such open minded people in my life.

I have also lost many friends. And I am close to the point of forgiveness now. At first I felt rejected, then I rejected the relationships myself. It just is what it is. Its almost like a color. I like the color of those friendships very much, I just don't know quite how to incorporate them into the decor of my life now. I hope some day I/we will figure that out.

I was asked the other day if you could go back and not know what you know about the church would you?

At first I would have said yes.

Now? not only no. but hell no.

My life is richer for all the things I've learned.

PS. In other news, Kyle's hair has gotten a lot longer and his vas deferens shorter ;) 

Map out your questioning.

I have new advice. Over time, since I have been open about my disaffection, some have in confidence shared that they are also doubting the church's claims. They wonder what resources might help. I generally share the sources that I found to be credible or at least not intensely slanted in either direction for or against the church.

Now that its not quite so emotional, I have started to think back over the map of my own apostasy and I wish I could do it over again. So here goes for time machine advice to myself:

First, Deeply consider one question:

IF there is evidence that the church is not what it claims to be, do you want to know?

For me the answer is yes because the truth is that important to me that I have a grasp on it even if it does not meld with what I want to be true. But if you can not say the same, do not go any further. When you stumble on info like Joseph Smith sent men on missions and married their wives while they were away. Or that he had sex with other women then when found out, claimed divine intervention, or that there are multiple versions of the first vision. IF those do not sit well in your mind, or you are capable of doubting the sources. Then by all means do that. Do exactly what Uctdorf says and doubt the doubts.

If like me, you must know, you want information from as many direct sources as possible and trained historians. Then here is the advice from my perspective:


1. Stop and breathe, decide in your mind that no matter what, you will take the process slowly. Read and investigate voraciously but continue to live as you are, no brash decision to stop going to church or activities. I think it actually helped my leaving that I went to church every Sunday during my disaffection and research.

2. Value objectivism over emotion. Religion is emotional and deals with our deepest existential fears. Table those emotions as best you can.

3. DO NOT CONTINUE ON WITH LDS MATERIAL at this point. Stop and start somewhere else:
-Get a very firm grip on logical fallacies and how to formulate an argument without flaws.
-Investigate the basic debates on deities.
-Decide your personal parameters for investigating truth.

4. Go back to the scriptures with the expectation that the creator of all the universe be somewhat logical. This site has scriptures organized by topic to aid your reading. Consider how you would communicate with your children and compare the information in the scriptures, including slavery and racism. In other words go read your scriptures but let critical thinking trump your feelings.

5. When you have a working knowledge of logical fallacies and investigating claims rationally return to investigating general claims of Mormonism but not church history yet. I'd start with rationalizing the plan of salvation: Pre-existence

6. Read books by non-believers and how they arrived there.
Losing my Religion by Lobdell
Deconverted by Seth Andrews
Why People Believe Weird Things by Shermer

7. Get into science.
StarTalk Radio
Big Think
The most astounding fact
Storytelling of Science
Radiolab

8. Now you are ready to Dig into church history.

9. Make your list of reasons to stay and reasons to leave, defend both positions logically to yourself.

10. Share with loved ones slowly and carefully as you feel ready. Preface conversations with the hope that the conversation can remain objective. "We discuss without tearful testimony sharing"


I went through my journey backwards, I was full of emotion and anger and had no clue about logical arguments so while I flopped like a dying fish - unable to recapture belief but fearful of the supernatural everything in my life was scary. I waited for signs that would never come. Every flat tire or tight paycheck was a sign of doom that I was a bad person just for questioning. A pregnancy laden with fear because surely I would be punished or have "blessings withheld".

Paradigm shifts are extremely difficult, they can only be handled rationally or you will be tugged at from every single direction with your free will abused with emotion, personal history, relationships, love and want.

Reason, Observation and Experience — the Holy Trinity of Science — have taught us that happiness is the only good; that the time to be happy is now, and the way to be happy is to make others so. This is enough for us. In this belief we are content to live and die. If by any possibility the existence of a power superior to, and independent of, nature shall be demonstrated, there will then be time enough to kneel. Until then, let us stand erect. - Robert Ingersoll

Faith is like a little seed.

Yeah, yeah... you are tired of the religious posts. Sorry but rule numero uno, write for yourself and only for yourself. Start writing for anyone else (besides a lover) and your voice is gone. If this offends your general senses especially ones that depend on faith, turn back now. No really its the internet - there is a button around here somewhere that will take you to LDS general conference memes.

I am going to sum up a podcast that I listened to about the psychology of religion. It can be found here.  Fair warning, its long. Two studies popped out to me that have stayed banging around in my brain. I will butcher them now. (I could re-listen and find said studies and read the abstracts) But 'ain't nobody got time for that'

Line experiment:

Graph at the front of the room with lines at varying heights. Line C is by far the tallest line. Without remarkable eye sight difficulties it would be difficult to not see that line C is the tallest. When alone in the room as near to 100% as you can get will say line C is the tallest. One subject in a room with 4 or 5 other people who they think are also other subjects (but they are actually moles - just researchers in street clothes). With the moles present the subject is last to be asked:

"Which line is the tallest"

Before them each of the other individuals will answer first and they will all say "Line A is tallest"

Line A

Line A

Line A

Line A

When this happens the rate at which the actual tallest line is identified drops to ... I don't remember now, in the 30ish%. Its just so hard after hearing four or five other people say Line A for you to say Line C. Even though you know line C is tallest.

Now when just ONE mole changes their answer:

Line A

Line C

Line A

Line A

The rates that the subject will say the correct line jump WAY back up.

Pretend you like it experiment:

"Say you like it till you do."

Subjects are brought in and asked to do a mind numbing pointless task, move these pegs from these holes to these holes, then back for THIRTY STRAIGHT MINUTES.  Till you want to poke your eyes out with the pegs. That mind numbing.

Participants are asked to rate their satisfaction with the task, as expected rates of satisfaction were not high.

Now same task, same amount of time, same mind numb. Except this time before rating their satisfaction they are ask to do a solid for the researcher. He has to go to the bathroom, can the subject head out to the waiting room and explain the importance of participating in this study. Just tell the person that its of value to the academic community blah, blah and that it was a rather enjoyable experience. They do head out and to the next participant SAY that they actually rather kind of enjoyed doing an absolutely mundane task for thirty minutes of their life.

THEN they are asked about rate of satisfaction with the task that they did. The group that gave the pitch had significantly higher rates of satisfaction. Just because they said they liked it, they ended up kind of liking it.

Now apply the commentary of these two social experiments to lets say a testimony meeting:

You might have "doubts" in your mind or as I have come to realize, logic and reason nagging at you. But you hear one after the other, Line A, Line A, Line A, Line A, from the oldest to the tiniest members coached with whispered breath say Line A Line A Line A.... and you begin push down in your mind the voice saying nuh-uh. Its C.

Then you are told to say it till you mean it, sell the pitch.

A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it. Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that 'leap of faith,' as the philosophers call it. - Richard Wirthlin

Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them. - Dallin Oaks

So month after month, Sunday after Sunday, meeting after meeting, You listen to the echo chamber of belief and if you still don't have your own, say it anyway. 

Line A

Line A

Line A

I know this church is true.

I know this church is true.

I know this church is true. 

I know this church is true.

if there is a god,

 he ain't mormon

I did not go looking to lose my faith. I was pretty happy where I was in my fog of faith when I tripped up on church history issues. In fact I was being a member missionary to Joni when I was appalled at some claims she made on her blog. I decided I'd fact check them myself, surely being raised in the church, being a seminary graduate and years of gospel doctrine I would have heard about this... that lead me to the wives of Joseph Smith, then Joseph's multiple accounts of the first vision, then the witnesses to the book of mormon saying they didn't see it with their real eyes but their "spiritual" eyes. Then further. 

But more telling to me was the response I got from those who I talked to about my "issues".  I noticed a trend. Start with the conclusion, make information fit to that conclusion, depend solely on the subjective, and when really hard pressed say "I don't know" or "you just got to have faith". 

Subjective:  Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external

God is not the god of confusion, God is unchanging...

Well all I could find in my research was a big steamy pile of confusion shrouded in changes. 

Take for instance women. We hear talk a lot in the church about how important prophets were then so they should be now, because why would God want a mouthpiece for his people then for revelation and not now? That wouldn't make any sense.

So then why do women now dismiss polygamy because "well I don't need to worry about it, its not asked of ME now." What? Are we better women now than them, do we deserve better than they did?

Or the reverse -- Why is there a prophetess in the Old Testament? But not today?

How come looking back we know easily when a prophet was just "speaking as a man" but we don't seem to realize that in the moment. 1978 was NOT that long ago. The year I was born a black active LDS family would not be admitted into a temple. 

IF we are the one true church with direct revelation from God... one of those sides of the equation is off. Either the church is not true. Or god is a racist jerkface.

OR Option 3. Its all man-made. Funny how whatever opinion the person/church holds they seem convinced its god's directive as well. 

How about the scriptures? You are a loving parent you communicate with your children and THAT is the end result? Lots of bloodshed, rape, incest, murder, slavery, polygamy...spattered with loving sentiments and contradictions. 

How about the ten commandments? If you knew you would die tomorrow and you could only leave 10 rules about life for your children would FOUR be about how they think/worship YOU? 

It was all a ball of crazy as soon as I allowed myself to NOT look at it subjectively but objectively. 

Objective: Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices

Then I started to notice that what I was hearing by those trying to help were rationalizations. 

Men rationalizing polygamy involving 14 year olds, women rationalizing their husbands being sealed to other women after they die. Many rationalizing not supporting gay marriage because it went against what "they believed". Many, many rationalizing building a mall while babies died from starvation. 

I don't know really what was the right choice but I stayed active for a long time when it was very hard. I kept going to church for months and months after I truly stopped believing. I was fighting to believe so I might not have even admitted "non-belief" to myself then. But it was there. 

I think that continuing to go has had its pros and cons, Pros in that I became truly solidified in my decisions. Kyle and I got on the same page gradually as inconsistencies became glaring. (That happens when you set aside the prejudice toward belief.) We could introduce questioning to the kids before we stopped going. 

The biggest con was that it started my hulk phase: 

I got angry. I could only see people I love unwilling to see what they are committed to. Finding out the truth about the church is like seeing your best friends husband with another woman. You tell her but she doesn't believe you. Her marriage is worth more than the truth to her. 

I want to shake every member by the shoulders and say. 

ITS NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS.

ITS JUST NOT.

Yes I know there is so much good... but there is good elsewhere!

Its like a cookie, a really really good cookie, but one chocolate chip is actually dog poop. 

Pascals Wager:

An argument in philosophy: It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or does not exist. Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God.  (from here)

In short Pascals wager is "what if you are wrong" 

I saw merit in that argument for a long time. If you are a faithful LDS member you will most likely lead a very good life. (that is if you are not gay, or feminist, or, I digress) So why not live as if the church is true and all will be ok either way. 

Rather than leave and it be true...

Well its like this you see,

You give up A LOT to be mormon. 

You are told what congregation to attend.
You don't request which calling you would like you are offered one 

Who to visit to teach and who will visit you.

Meetings and more meetings and meetings about meetings.

Told what to wear and what to eat and what to drink.

Admonished to have families be totally self reliant give 10% of your income, and then some more.
Spend your precious little time for date night at the temple as often as possible. 

Don't ask where that money goes. 

Spend 10,000 on a mission

Support your leaders no. matter. what.
Indexing!

But what if THIS is it. What if this beautifully wonderful fantastic but short life is IT.

Just think about that for a moment. A short life, now take away the time you must sleep. The time you must work. The time you must shower and eat. Take away your childhood and your very old age. What do you have left? 

Not tons of time. In that small slice of pie left do I want to spend it at mormon meetings hearing many of the same things over and over again, many inconsistencies and logical fallacies? Spend all that time talking about helping our fellow man but really just indexing? Indexing a lot. We like the dead, they don't ask as many questions about church history.

So Pascals wager doesn't work for me. 

IF there is a god.

IF that god is logical.

I will be judged for how I acted not what was in my head.

IF they are reasonable I can explain why I rejected what I rejected. Why I kept what I kept.

Even if I professed belief I would be lying.

If when I die, I go back to being elements for life on this earth to continue. If 3020 is the same to me as 1720 was, then I am going use every second of this life while I have it to live. I'll be honest with myself. Share my story. Help others. Enjoy my time, my body, my family. 

I have noticed myself moving through the Kubler-Ross stages of grief. Just a little out of order, I've done denial, then bargaining, then depression, Now its anger. But little by little acceptance is taking hold. 

I feel like airing the rest of my frustrations will move me solidly into peace. I am making new friends. We are filling our lives with new endeavors and activities. Its staggering to realize how embedded the church was in our lives. Freeing to know its gone. 

fin.

Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence - unknown

He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. - William Drummond

Nola's Blessing Day

On a sunny day we went to the park as a family to bless our sweet Nola with our thoughts and hopes for her. While we have had a major change in our life, abandoning all tradition is not something we were ready for, and this was very special because we could all participate in a way we couldn't in a traditional LDS baby blessing. 

We all said what we hoped for Nola's future, every single family member. Grandma talked about the bond with her even before her birth. Popa Tony expressed how very cool her name is. Nana spoke of her never ending smile and hope for that joy to continue. Brothers and Sisters all said "I love you" in their way and we are so glad you are in our family. Aunt Meg talked about how we need each other as a family and each other's help. Kyle and I expressed deep deep love for her, our baby. 

Since this was a first for me, I wrote mine down, and after all was said we released the balloons to celebrate her future.

Nola Anne this is a different blessing than the one I thought about for you, but you are way too loved to let this moment pass without welcoming your life and blessing you with our hopes for the future

You own no one any thing but being good natured to others and pursuing the happiness this world has to offer.

Go where you heart leads you while knowing there are all of us here around you now that love you more than you can comprehend

Equal is Equal.

I have this cheesy (read fantastic) idea, Kyle and I should do blog battles, some way some how blog the convos that we have back and forth. I may be partial, but I think our dinner discussions and chats that we somehow manage to have over the roar of six kids are pretty damn interesting. Kyle brings the brilliance and I bring the emotion. Last night's discussion that continued when he got a chance to call me at lunch morphed into him writing this blog post, without further ado... 

(PS. I said every good blog post needs a pic, he firmly requested a baby squirrel.) 

from here

A guest blog from Kyle:

I do not often post my thoughts publicly; preferring, instead, to share them in more personal conversations with those close to me. The recent rulings by the Supreme Court and the ensuing uproar have spurred me to depart from that behavior.

Up until maybe two years ago, I identified as Republican. Then I realized that the Republican Party as an organization no longer believed or practiced the ideals that I believe in: limited government, fiscal responsibility, personal accountability, adherence to the Constitution, and freedom of the people to name a few. Instead, Republican politicians proclaim these values to get elected and then abandon them once they are in office (massive expansion of govt, massive debt, out of control departments and programs, bills that are voted on without anyone even READING). To be fair, I think the same situation exists for the Democrats as well – espousing principles of helping the poor and needy, equality for all, fairness, etc… - then legislating nothing but more govt and power for themselves. I still tend to vote Republican but identify as Conservative or Libertarian.

So it has been with mounting disgust and embarrassment that I have read the comments on various news sites from ‘Republicans’ / ‘Conservatives’ regarding the gay marriage decisions. These comments run from ‘homosexuality is a sin’ to ‘gays will burn in hell’ to ‘why do they have to do that in public’ to ‘they just want to shove this down our throats’. The amount of hatred and vitriol is barely kept in check by many of these people and I have yet to see any of them approach the issue with a rational defense of their position based on the law, the Constitution, or anything other than their personal beliefs. I am embarrassed that these comments are coming from the same people who would identify as the same political philosophy I do.

Putting the vitriolic nature of these comments aside and looking at them based on their (lack of) merits:

The arguments based on the Bible (ie: it is a sin / abomination):

            - First of all, religion should not dictate laws. ‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…’ To my knowledge, this is the only mention of religion within the Constitution or its Amendments. Nowhere does it state that laws should be established based on the beliefs of a particular religion. Frankly, that would be really bad because…

            - Which religion should we base our laws on? Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Mormon, Lutheran, Presbyterian… What about Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist... This is exactly what the section of the Constitution above is designed to prevent – any religion, no matter how prevalent in the current society, from becoming the law of the land.

            - Which Bible? The wiki on Bible editions shows 96 different versions classified as ‘complete translations’. 96!!! I knew there were a lot but seriously? How can any person definitively state their version is the absolute undeniable word of God when there are so many different variations? And to not only say that your version is correct but to then use that to condemn a person based on it? I am sorry but that is not what I think Jesus would do. I was going to break down the few (3) actual scriptures I have seen quoted but that seems irrelevant at this point. Judge not lest ye be judged.

As for the arguments based on society/culture (for lack of a better classification) (ie: ‘Why do they have to be in public like that?’ and ‘Eww, can you believe they actually expect us to be okay with them calling it marriage’). While it was slightly before my time, these arguments sound remarkably similar to those made by the ‘moral authority’ during a different issue. Let’s change them just slightly and see what we think: ‘Why do they have to be in the same public places as us?’ and ‘Eww, can you believe they actually expect us to be okay with them eating in the same restaurants as us?’ Too much? Maybe, but society wouldn’t condone those statements today so why do we condone similar ones just because it is a different classification of people? Equal is Equal.

Before seeing these comments and, frankly, before actually writing my own thoughts down, I never would have called myself a ‘supporter of gay rights’. But I can find absolutely no justification in the opposite argument and the attempts by those in that camp to justify their position only make their position weaker. For those of you that know me and my recent departure from faith, you may be thinking my opinions are based on that change. You would be wrong. Even when I was a self-proclaimed Christian (LDS), I had trouble supporting the opposition to gay marriage. Basically, I asked myself this question: ‘How does the marriage of two men or two women cheapen or in any way negatively affect my own marriage?’ The only honest answer I had was ‘It does not’. So how could I possibly stand for denying the same recognition of love that I have enjoyed for many years with my wife from any of my fellow human beings?

(p.s. I do have a major issue with the WAY in which the court handled Prop8 but that could be an entire book on its own)

- Kyle.

Satan, the most confusing part of the plan.

?

There are a few premises to the idea of the adversary that have made me scratch my head....

IF the reason we are here is to receive a body AND...

Be tested. Then there needs to be equilibrium in the force - a side or nature we are fighting against. In the plan of salvation when Lucifer's plan of forced communistic behavior is rejected the war ensues and his followers are cast out and they tempt us to this day. They want our bodies and want to win more souls away from God.

This is the battle between good and evil that we are here to be tested within...


SO if Satan wants to destroy God's plan. And he puts the balance in the testing arena... The BEST thing he could do would be to .....


LEAVE.


Don't show up. Go over to a universe far, far away and take a nap for a LOT of years.  THAT would actually mess God up.

But Satan is motivated enough to play along and be in the minds of 7 billion people ALL the time. (with the help of his motivated minions.  Day in and Day out even at night... tempting us. Hard working fellow.

Then as I heard one teenager put it at the UU meeting one day. If Satan will punish all the bad guys? How does that not make him a good guy?

And, call me callous but I don't even understand the need for a sacrifice. Why exactly could God not just forgive??

What I see now are the merits of comfort when you externalize your own nature.

Praise God for the good and blame Satan for the bad.

Nooooo you didn't just have the urge to punch that person in the face, It was Satan tempting you.

It also answers the awful awful emotions we have when people do TERRIBLE things, like torture babies. We don't want to think that is something a human brain could be capable of, even a damaged one. We find solace in the eternal damnation of the worst of humankind. And reward for the good of others.

These thoughts were in my head when this week, the "historic" broadcast let us know that the LDS church will be equipping missionaries with ipads (some of them) and having some of them spend more time in meetinghouses on the internet sharing the message instead of bothering people door to door. I suspect it is getting difficult to find things for these missionaries to do.

big sigh...

Know what I see now? 70,000 young people who could ROCK THIS WORLD in major humanitarian efforts. Build more wells, deliver more mosquito nets, call up habitat for humanity and say "want about 5000 hard workers full time?" Ask my sister who works at a homeless shelter what could be done with the money about to be spent on ipads.
Call orphanages or schools in impoverished areas and say we will be there tuesday with paint cans and pencils and paper. Start funneling food to the starving right. now. instead of storing it for ourselves?

 Worldwide, there are 50 million deaths annually, and 5 million (10%) of those death are due to childhood malnutrition. And while only 10% of malnourished child die; the remaining 90% suffer lifelong cognitive and physical defects that significantly and severely reduce their earning potential as adults, leading to a cycle in which their reduced future earnings lead to their own children being malnourished as well. We estimate 80,000 active LDS children suffer from chronic malnutrition, and about 900 die from malnutrition every year. A similar number of active LDS children are unable to attend elementary school secondary to lack of funding. from here


We are so caught up in peoples eternal salvation we completely overlook their current suffering.
IF there is a Satan, (no I don't think there is) he is probably beyond happy to see prophets, seers and revelators justify a mall with church funds and see young men and women spend more time inside on the internet. IS religion the haze letting us abandon others?


In defense of the church, I think this is great: http://www.justserve.org/

A more eloquent synopsis here. 

** And no, I don't expect perfection from every organization, we could (and should) all do more, but I don't see many other organizations proclaiming to be the ONE, the TRUE church, with direct revelation through a modern prophet.

by their fruits?

Helping Disaffected LDS Members

Will a man rob God?

Yet ye have robbed me. Malachi 3:8

If I walked confidently through one issue of my religion, tithing was one. You could even say I had a strut about me:

Full confidence in a lay clergy.
Full confidence in our humanitarian efforts.
Full confidence in meetinghouses and Temples built with no debt.

Then some information came to light that tripped me on the curb and I ate the sidewalk. Face first into a pain of consciousness.

Our church built a mall. ....blink, blink..... Our church built a mall?!?

In the heart of Salt Lake City, City Creek Center is the retail centerpiece of one of the nation's largest mixed-use downtown redevelopment projects. This unique shopping environment features a retractable glass roof, a creek that runs through the property, a pedestrian skybridge and more. This world-class fashion and dining destination offers over 90 stores and restaurants including Nordstrom, Macy's, Tiffany & Co., Michael Kors, Coach, and Texas de Brazil Churrascaria, in a casual, pedestrian-friendly environment. From here

Yes you read that right; a mall. A "megamall" actually.

People are dying from lack of food, but we built a shopping mall.

I've seen estimates of 1.5 billion to 5 billion.

ba,ba,ba BILLION.  A billion is a thousand million (lots of zeros)

Why oh why is the Lord's kingdom financing high end shopping malls?

ain't it pretty?

To protect our real estate interests in the Downtown Salt Lake area.

We feel terrific. We've accomplished, we think, what we set out to accomplish.

–H. David Burton, LDS Church presiding bishop

okaaaaaaay...

1.3 billion spent on International Humanitarian Fund since it began in 1985.
1.5 billion on ONE MALL.
does anyone else see a problem here?

I worked very hard on this one for a long time. It rolled around in my brain like a violent pinball machine.
I tried to make allowances like:

Its not technically from 'tithes' - its from investments.
It will protect the area around the Temple and other historical structures of the Church.
Maybe the church is a partial silent investor.
Maybe we will re-coup this money.

maybe, maybe, maybe...

A couple of heated discussion with Kyle over this one.

Then the ribbon cutting:

And that was it - frustration that I could not get past anymore.  This is not acceptable to me. In that picture there on the right is the First Presidency at the ribbon cutting - chanting 123 "let's go shopping"

President Eyring spoke on behalf of the Church at Thursday's ceremony, saying City Creek Center is now open to invite the world to come to downtown Salt Lake City & headquarters of the Church. "Everything that we see around us is evidence of the long-standing commitment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to Salt Lake City,"  from Church News

wait? That is what we are committed to? Because I thought it was to the stranger, and to the fatherless, and to the widow that they may eat within thy gates and be filled.

As Jana Reiss put it:
Given those facts, spending a billion and a half dollars on a den of luxury consumption is a moral failure. It just is. A more modest, scaled-down plan to revitalize Salt Lake’s once-thriving downtown would have been enough. The rest is vanity, calculated to impress. It is palpably ironic that the mall contains a luxury store called True Religion jeans (opening Summer 2012). Whatever else it may be, this mall is not true religion.
From here

The mall will be closed on Sundays - but alcohol will be served at some restaurants. So that would mean our church is now invested in alcohol sales. Very, very interesting.

I am sure this is not even remotely on many LDS member's radars, and honestly I'd like to return to clueless land most days - but now that I know, I can't get past it.  When you read through all of Malachi and not just that exact verse, you can see that the scripture "Will a man rob God" is not directed at the tithe-payers, but the Priests who were mis-using the tithes given.

Add the mall to my concerns over many other fiancial ventures of the church, Prop 8, our controlling nature over the Boy Scouts of America, banks, insurance companies, ranches, hotels, hunting preserves, sending senior missionaries to "work/serve" on their dime at for-profit businesses, etc.

I am lost as to how to reconcile this.

What saddens me most is that I can't properly defend my Church to myself or to others, because they won't tell me what is going on. Since the 1960's they don't tell us anymore what happens to our tithing.

For the first 128 years of this Church's formal existence, it was an essential part of April conference for the leaders of the Church to report it's financial dealings in full to the general membership. This was usually among the first matters of business during the Saturday morning session. From the time of Joseph Smith on, it was understood that the members who provided the tithes were to be shown how their sacred tithing dollars had been disbursed so they could voice their consent. The leaders understood they had a sacred fiduciary trust and a responsibility to inform the members of a) how much money was collected in tithing, and b) how that money was being spent from one year to the next.
from Here

I think if I just knew - then I could maybe work through this. But what I feel now is that I should no longer just "trust" that the Church as a corporation is doing right by tithing.

There is an online petition right now in regards to this issue that I would urge members to ponder on and consider signing. I think it is of utmost importance: http://bycommonconsent.org/, and it says:

“And all things shall be done by common consent in the church”

DOCTRINE & COVENANTS 26:2

As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints it is our desire to faithfully fulfill our obligation to our church by at least annually giving our “voice and Common Consent” as to the allocation of the funds that have been and are currently being donated by us to our Church.

We believe as President Hinckley stated that the financial information of our church “belongs to those that made the contribution”.

For most of our history our church provided full disclosure of its funds. Even in times of financial difficulties members could share in the joy of knowing that good works were being accomplished with their collective donations. We have confidence that a full annual financial disclosure will vindicate the virtue and integrity of our church’s financial affairs that are consistent with the principles taught by our Lord. Such open transparency will also dispel all mystery that often leads to unverifiable speculation both without and within our church:  “And He doeth nothing, save it be plain.” (2 Ne. 26:33). We seek complete transparency in all our financial affairs by following the Lord’s counsel that monies placed into His treasury shall “not be used, or taken out of the treasury, only by voice and common consent” (Doctrine and Covenants 104:71).

Therefore, we the undersigned members formally request that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints once again publish a full annual financial report that provides sufficient details so that we as members can once again give our “voice and Common Consent” as to the allocation of monies expended by our Church.

If you can't trust me - the feeling is mutual.

Things were spinnin' 'round me

And all my thoughts were cloudy

And I had begun to doubt all the things that were me

Been in so many places, you know I've run so many races

Looked into the empty faces of the people of the night

Somethin' is just not right

'Cause I know that I've gotta get outta here

I'm so alone

-Jim Croce

by Terryl Givens Professor of literature, author, and faithful member:


We have been set up.
The manuals distributed throughout the CES (Church Education System) and the sunday school program are deplorable... they are full of errors and misinformation. I don't think there is a deliberate campaign of disinformation going on...
The best scholarship taking place in the church history department hasn't filtered down to the level of the curriculum. And everyday that it doesn't the church is going to lose more mormons.
The problem is not information, the problem is betrayal. Nobody really leaves the church because there isn't enough information available to answer a question - and that's one thing that I don't think the church has gotten yet.
People leave the church because by the time the question arises it is too late.
If you are 45 and you learn for the very first time that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using a peep stone you have every right in the world to feel betrayed. Why wasn't I taught the truth in seminary or in sunday school?
I haven't heard a good answer for that, there isn't really an excuse for the church not to be moving faster to revise and update more truthful manuals.

from episode three here

I heard once that faith crises tend to happen in those who "care too much" - That might be a stretch, but I would say that I have gone through intense periods of re-dedication, wanting to read everything I could get my hands on: my scriptures, all CES manuals, books about the scriptures (old and new) and on and on. Many Sunday afternoons with my scriptures on one thigh and another book on the other thigh saying something that always started with "hey Kyle, did you know...."

I also thought of myself as a pretty good missionary - I like to meet folks and talk to folks and share what I feel is awesome about my religion.  Growing up in the south meant defending my religion almost all. the. time.

I have defended my faith, my religion, its history since I was a very little girl.  The time my Aunt refused to offer me anything but iced tea with my lunch while my mom was out shopping. Because "its what everyone else is having and you just need to get over it." 

I defended it again when I went to vacation bible school with my cousins since we'd have 'so much fun' and the ladies in charge caught wind that I was LDS and hammered me with doctrinal questions. 

I defended it ALL through high school especially every time the local baptist church distributed anti-cult materials labeling us as enemy numero uno.

I reached for my scriptures and read straight from them in college whilst defending. I remember one conversation of the pre-existence my roommate sticking fingers in her ears like a kid because just the thought sounded "evil" to her. (still don't get that one)

I defended, I defended, I defended.

Recently, when I found Joni's blog here I was fascinated reading about her journey through other faiths and even daydreamed about doing it myself.  When she got to Mormonism, I went to church with her. We met on her side of town and I was actually pleasantly surprised to see a much more diverse ward than what I had become accustomed to in Texas.

When she finished her time and wrote a synopsis of our faith - I was a little shattered. It by far was not all "glowy".  I became ready to really investigate all the things I had spent my life defending.  And I got the courage to go to sources other than only LDS printed publications and Deseret approved sources.

Which is where two roads diverge in a wood I guess you would say. Some faithful adherents will not be able to understand this, because if you stray from the Church you stray from righteous influences. But I'm not buying that anymore. I'm not an Amway salesman only reading material from Amway.

What I found was hard to swallow.

A lot of what I was defending I didn't have all the information available.

• How did I get to my mid-thirties not knowing Joseph Smith had 30 wives, some that were married to other men, several that were teenagers

• The story of Helen Mar Kimball alone sat like a rock in my stomach (from her journal):

Helen was now fourteen when her father approached her. She wrote: “My father was the first to introduce [plural marriage] to me, which had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake…… Without any preliminaries [my Father] asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives…The first impulse was anger…my sensibilities were painfully touched....

Then father “asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph…[and] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty-four hours…I was sceptical-one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast her off, and this was the only convincing proof that I had of its being right. I knew that he loved me too well to teach me anything that was not strictly pure, virtuous and exalting in its tendencies; and no one else could have influenced me at that time or brought me to accept of a doctrine so utterly repugnant and so contrary to all of our former ideas and traditions….. Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet’s own mouth. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the alter.”

The next morning Joseph visited the Kimball home. “[He explained] the principle of Celestial marrage…After which he said to me, ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward.  

From Here

• How did I get this far without any knowledge whatsoever of the very serious problems with the accuracy of the Book of Abraham?

• How had I ever, ever, ever in a million years made allowances for the blatant racism regarding the the Priesthood ban against black men?

• There was more than one accounting of the first vision by Joseph... wha... what??? And they were drastically different? what????

• Joseph was not necessarily wrongfully imprisoned at the time of his death - he was  there for very real charges of destroying a printing press... owned by a man about to go forward with his story of Joseph Smith trying to marry his wife?

• Problems with the BOM witnesses...

But you want to know the really crazy thing? I think I could have worked through each and every single issue if the faith I was defending cared as much about me as I did about it.  I don't think anything I've written about is proof that the church is false. There is no organization, religious or not, immune to falsehoods and historical tough spots. But the covering up/whitewashing of our history is incredibly unsettling to me. It feels like betrayal.  
Agency depends on knowledge and accurate information. Instead, the information we have has been sent through the polishing rock tumbler so many times its hard to even know what is truth.  How much is correlation damaging us: read here

When the church does employ the expertise of top-notch historians they end up at odds with those historians. See Daymon Smith, D. Micheal Quinn, The September Six.

I guess the upper leadership leans more with Boyd K. Packer when he says 

"There is a temptation for the writer or teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful."

I'm sorry but I need to be trusted more than that.

This blogger put it perfectly: 

Polygamy wasn’t central in my leaving of the church, but the pattern of lying, avoiding, and covering unattractive doctrine and history was.  I heard the apostles speak and say things I knew were wrong but sounded good and bold.  Things I wanted to be true.  Things I had heard as a 14-year old in the Priesthood session of general conference.  Things I knew many others were accepting as true and factual.  I knew the Apostles weren’t ignorant and lost trust for the church authorities.  What I wanted in a church was honest, bold truth.  I didn’t care if the truth was difficult, I only cared that it was right.  The leaders are accountable for this, but my next words go to everyone: By attempting to fit in with the rest of the world, soften your edges, and make your message more palatable, you have lost any claim you had of being the unique and restored church of God.  Rather than teaching the world you are being taught by it, changing to conform to it, and trying to please it with flowery and well-designed statements aimed at obscuring your connection with unpopular things like polygamy.  In this you appear as a business with a good PR department, not a divine source of untarnished truth. -Jefferson Cloward
found here

This is a fantastic talk about having compassion for those who leave:

Many faithful, devoted, and dedicated members are leaving the church they once loved due to “unintentional consequences of their search for truth”. These were people who were fully committed temple going, tithe-paying members. In 2009 it is estimated that over 83,000 members left the church. Many members, including leaders, are resigning their membership, NOT DUE TO SIN OR WEAKNESS, but due to reading or listening to something which changes their PERCEPTION OF TRUTH.

Can our relationship with those who leave the church withstand these changes in THEIR BELIEF?

Imagine that “Everything that you had thought about yourself, others, and the world was built on a lie! All the time you were growing up you felt different and did not know why. The way you looked at life was based on who you thought you were and on what you believed to be true.” Your world would just crumble around you! You would not know what to trust, let alone who to trust! You would have to re-learn almost everything; the way you interacted with others, your values and more.

What if every major decision you made was based on what you thought was truth? There would be so much fallout your head would be spinning! You would most likely experience ‘rage’, ‘despair’, ‘grief’, ‘sorrow’, ‘anguish’, ‘more anger, mistrust, confusion’, and run through a ‘whole gamut of emotions’. The longer you were members of the Church and the more you genuinely believed it to be true, the more severe the trauma coming out. ...

If you look around this room and see who’s here, then imagine some of us may not be here in a week, or a month, a year or two. I want you to know that whatever happens I will love you. I will have compassion for you. - Steve Bloor

And later this Bishop shared his own resignation letter: here.

this video also summarizes the situation really well - why people leave and how you can help them: screencast below, podcast here

What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? Luke 15:4