Questioning Mormonism?

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Questions atheists can't truly answer... Ok I'll bite.

Some Questions Atheist Cannot Truly and Honestly REALLY Answer! Which leads to some interesting conclusions…

from here

1.       How Did You Become an Atheist?

 In the very unsettling process of leaving the religion I was raised in and the subsequent sadness I set out to learn logical fallacies, biases and the method to determining truth not based on feelings. It lead me to skepticism and I applied it to all religions the same way I did to my own.

2.       What happens when we die?

I can hope that a lot of things happen but the only credible evidence there is, is that the matter that is "us" becomes some other part of nature.  

3.       What if you’re wrong? And there is a Heaven? And there is a HELL!

I would hope "they" or him or her would judge me based on my actions and not my beliefs. Infinite reward or punishment for finite actions is illogical. If that is how the afterlife works it is not worth my mental energy and I will do what I do anyway and enjoy the time I have.

 “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
― Anonymous

4.       Without God, where do you get your morality from?

 The same place you do. Most religious folks I know do not consult their sacred text for every moral decision. Morality to me is a combination of treating others the way I want to be treated. Avoiding harm to others and myself and animals and nature. And asking myself if what I do is something EVERYONE else did, would this world be better or worse off?

5.       If there is no God, can we do what we want? Are we free to murder and rape? While good deeds are unrewarded?

Even if there is a god you can do what you want. Believers and non believers murder and rape. Fair secular justice is all we can aim for. Christian believers think those people are worthy of forgiveness solely for believing in Jesus.

 6.       If there is no god, how does your life have any meaning?

 It has meaning because I give it meaning. I feel meaning and love and accomplishment and enjoy the experiences therein.

7.       Where did the universe come from?

 We don't know. But believing god only moves that back one square. Where does god come from?
We learn more about the Big Bang and the Cosmos everyday. I am open to learning more about all of that. Religion? not so much.

8.       What about miracles? What all the people who claim to have a connection with Jesus? What about those who claim to have seen saints or angels?

Bias, delusion, groupthink, confusion, motivated reasoning, false memories, etc. This does not further the religious person's cause because for every person who has had a personal experience justifying their belief there is probably someone else who also had an experience that directly contradicts that. Mormonism (modern prophet) Islam (no prophets after Mohammad) Can not both be true. But both sides have miracles as their claim.

"Miracles are culturally accepted false beliefs."

9.       What’s your view of Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris?

Not relevant to the issue.

Dawkins is an expert on evolutionary biology. I learned a lot from the "Selfish Gene"

Hitchens - profound speaker especially in debate format.

Harris- fascinating information from his perspective on neurology. His book "Free Will" made me a more compassionate person.

10.   If there is no God, then why does every society have a religion?

We have evolved to patternistic thinking. We look for patterns even when they don't exist, our existential fears are comforted by the notion of a god so we look for notions of a deity to self soothe. Culturally we have also done this to solidify the group. It is pervasive and we indoctrinate our children to it before they even question. Its hard to go against that, so many don't even try, even though I would hazard to guess most harbor doubts.

Strengthen home and family?

A ranty post with all the feels today.

This is a perfect storm of emotions. The final crack of the whip  is still sounding through the air on the excommunication of Kate Kelly from Ordain Women. I listened to this podcast this morning and while I did not have a visceral reaction to her excommunication other than "how very very stupid of the church to do that" I was overcome with emotion listening to others describe the emotional violent nature of the church to women and questioners.

Then I am entangled in my own career/motherhood/'what the hell am I anymore' angst. I started last fall making personal goals to return to work and Occupational Therapy specifically. That led to continuing education, shadowing hours and crossing my t's and dotting my i's. I was done with national certification and Texas had received everything needed to process my state license. I reached out through networking for job prospects and got a JOB!! I was floored. Things were looking up. They were so excited for me to start I was calling the OT board daily and on Monday of last week a slightly confused but kind gentleman gave me my license number over the phone. I was so excited!! And set to start working.

Two days later someone else called to take my license away.

In Texas you can only procure a license one of two ways by endorsement (meaning you are currently licensed in another state) or by having recently taken the examination. The person who gave me my number over the phone was not supposed to have done that. I am back to square one it seems. I have passed on the job for now. I have also spent several days sulking. Which hasn't made for a fun summer for the kids.

I think its made all these frustrations bubble to the surface that I usually keep tamped down with moderate success. So I need to talk again ...

YES AGAIN about the emotions I've been working through leaving religion behind.

Many people who come in contact with the sticky problems of truth claims in the church decide to stay for reasons besides the traditional testimony reasons. The community, the culture, avoidance of ruined relationships, etc. I get that, I do. But the one I don't get anymore even though for a brief time period I said it myself: "I'm staying for the sake of my children"

I want to sit and chat (sincerely) with every church member staying for their kids.  I'm not bullshitting at all I'd talk to them all if I could.


The church is preparing kids for a world that doesn't exist really. Girls will grow up with no limitations anywhere besides the church for having a vagina instead of a penis. Personal Progress that seems more about preparing them for "home and family" than higher education and upward mobility in the world is not really preparation.

No one with friends and colleagues that are LGBT and can get to know them can continue to respect the church's position. Each time in history where the church meets up to social causes the church has been wrong and takes far too long to come around.

So here I sit.

I LOVE MY KIDS to freaking bits. They are hands down the best thing I got from being a Mormon woman. I was sort of self righteous about my open womb for Jesus on this very blog (I leave that up for humility's sake)
But now I am struggling to return to work. The license department tsk-tsking me that I didn't maintain my license. Saying "I prayed about it and felt I shouldn't" doesn't mean shit to them.
We gave over $70,000 to the church yet we have no retirement and STILL will be paying our own student loans when our children start college.
With six kids, our groceries rival our mortgage and our kids are only going to camp this year because of generous donations from the freethought community. Activities/extracurricular things for six are not really an option. I am floored by what our gas costs will be to go see family in a week - why? BECAUSE WE HAVE TO DRIVE A BUS.

The church prepared me for what I feel like now is a untenable situation that is not conducive to mental well being.

I filled two grocery carts to the brim today, I couldn't be overly concerned with organic or even healthy because it was more like "how can we make this money work for 3 meals a day for 8". Ella daydreamed outloud about being a lawyer and I thought to myself a few years ago I would have made some statement about balancing that with motherhood and today thought SCREW THAT.

instead said "that is an absolutely valid plan Ella." There is nothing stopping you.

I'm not raising my kids under any organization that thinks they know what god wants you to do and that depends on your genitalia.

My path is a bit set for me now, we will figure it out. I'll keep making phone calls and making the decisions that get me to a career of some type. I have skills man, and damn it people like me.
We will have a happy loud home with bologna sandwiches instead of organic smoothies. I'm so grateful that Kyle works so hard for his family. Others have it much harder than us.

We will do great. But my girls won't be doing personal progress that indoctrinates them into what it means to be a "daughter of heavenly father" They will get to make their own goals. I'm not doing that for them. And I'm sure as hell not letting a church do it for them either.

Faith I would like to introduce you to Epistemology

I want to take something back.

I characterized my transition out of the church as a "faith crisis" and quite frankly I don't want to call it that anymore. It wasn't a crisis. It was difficult and emotional and generally a suck fest, but crisis? nah. And that term 'faith crisis' implies in some sense that I had created the problem.

A while back I ran into someone, a mormon friend, and since our time was brief I didn't want to bring it up, but it came up anyway. "How is the ward?"

good, as far as I know. (non committal answer)

"How is the family?"

great.

"So what is your calling these days?"

ummm. Actually we left the church in February.

"WHAT? silence.....
that doesn't sound like you."

On the drive home that phrase bounced around in my head like a ping pong ball. "doesn't sound like you"  it irritated me. It had nothing to do with me really. I dug into church history to solidify my faith, not lose it. What I found was NOT of my doing. History was history, I could not change it and I could not put it on the crumbling shelf anymore. How was I, almost 200 years later, dealing with the fallout of some other man's lies?
In the moment of our conversation. I gave my elevator pitch of my main reasons for leaving. She said what I had heard before:

"I know Joseph saw what he saw and did what he did."

And there it was, the "I know" I kept the conversation polite and kind but I thought:
NO YOU DON'T KNOW. You don't know. You just don't know. You just don't. I don't and YOU don't.

You have faith, but I no longer see the value in faith. Faith is lack of evidence. Or in the case of mormonism belief not only with lack of evidence but against a mountain of conflicting evidence. Faith is pretending to know something that you just don't know. Faith brings you here rather quickly:

cre·du·li·ty

krəˈd(y)o͞olitē/

noun

1. 1.

   a tendency to be too ready to believe that something is real or true.

When you really think about it, it's the things we have little evidence for that we keep fighting to believe. We are warned over and over again that our testimonies need "strengthening". What else in life once we have solid evidence for, do we need to keep strengthening our belief in?

Studying epistemology, thinking about thinking has really changed my entire world view. When religious, there were vast areas of science and ideas that I was just not participating in. I have this new world open to me and it doesn't deal in a realm where I have to suspend my logic. There were so so so many things that just never made sense to me.

I am still in the stage of processing. I am abandoning my native tongue. I can't just get up off my knees brush off the dirt and keep walking without deconstructing what I had worked so hard for - but now there is a whistle while I work.

When people share their stories now I'm not so much interested in what they know as much as how they know.

“There exists in society a very special class of persons that I have always referred to as the Believers. These are folks who have chosen to accept a certain religion, philosophy, theory, idea or notion and cling to that belief regardless of any evidence that might, for anyone else, bring it into doubt. They are the ones who encourage and support the fanatics and the frauds of any given age. No amount of evidence, no matter how strong, will bring them any enlightenment. - James Randi

Map out your questioning.

I have new advice. Over time, since I have been open about my disaffection, some have in confidence shared that they are also doubting the church's claims. They wonder what resources might help. I generally share the sources that I found to be credible or at least not intensely slanted in either direction for or against the church.

Now that its not quite so emotional, I have started to think back over the map of my own apostasy and I wish I could do it over again. So here goes for time machine advice to myself:

First, Deeply consider one question:

IF there is evidence that the church is not what it claims to be, do you want to know?

For me the answer is yes because the truth is that important to me that I have a grasp on it even if it does not meld with what I want to be true. But if you can not say the same, do not go any further. When you stumble on info like Joseph Smith sent men on missions and married their wives while they were away. Or that he had sex with other women then when found out, claimed divine intervention, or that there are multiple versions of the first vision. IF those do not sit well in your mind, or you are capable of doubting the sources. Then by all means do that. Do exactly what Uctdorf says and doubt the doubts.

If like me, you must know, you want information from as many direct sources as possible and trained historians. Then here is the advice from my perspective:


1. Stop and breathe, decide in your mind that no matter what, you will take the process slowly. Read and investigate voraciously but continue to live as you are, no brash decision to stop going to church or activities. I think it actually helped my leaving that I went to church every Sunday during my disaffection and research.

2. Value objectivism over emotion. Religion is emotional and deals with our deepest existential fears. Table those emotions as best you can.

3. DO NOT CONTINUE ON WITH LDS MATERIAL at this point. Stop and start somewhere else:
-Get a very firm grip on logical fallacies and how to formulate an argument without flaws.
-Investigate the basic debates on deities.
-Decide your personal parameters for investigating truth.

4. Go back to the scriptures with the expectation that the creator of all the universe be somewhat logical. This site has scriptures organized by topic to aid your reading. Consider how you would communicate with your children and compare the information in the scriptures, including slavery and racism. In other words go read your scriptures but let critical thinking trump your feelings.

5. When you have a working knowledge of logical fallacies and investigating claims rationally return to investigating general claims of Mormonism but not church history yet. I'd start with rationalizing the plan of salvation: Pre-existence

6. Read books by non-believers and how they arrived there.
Losing my Religion by Lobdell
Deconverted by Seth Andrews
Why People Believe Weird Things by Shermer

7. Get into science.
StarTalk Radio
Big Think
The most astounding fact
Storytelling of Science
Radiolab

8. Now you are ready to Dig into church history.

9. Make your list of reasons to stay and reasons to leave, defend both positions logically to yourself.

10. Share with loved ones slowly and carefully as you feel ready. Preface conversations with the hope that the conversation can remain objective. "We discuss without tearful testimony sharing"


I went through my journey backwards, I was full of emotion and anger and had no clue about logical arguments so while I flopped like a dying fish - unable to recapture belief but fearful of the supernatural everything in my life was scary. I waited for signs that would never come. Every flat tire or tight paycheck was a sign of doom that I was a bad person just for questioning. A pregnancy laden with fear because surely I would be punished or have "blessings withheld".

Paradigm shifts are extremely difficult, they can only be handled rationally or you will be tugged at from every single direction with your free will abused with emotion, personal history, relationships, love and want.

Reason, Observation and Experience — the Holy Trinity of Science — have taught us that happiness is the only good; that the time to be happy is now, and the way to be happy is to make others so. This is enough for us. In this belief we are content to live and die. If by any possibility the existence of a power superior to, and independent of, nature shall be demonstrated, there will then be time enough to kneel. Until then, let us stand erect. - Robert Ingersoll

Scriptures... Bring it.

I did what I had been admonished to do I turned to the scriptures and really focused, doing my best to remain objective. Here are a few things that were insurmountable.

My first BIG problem, polygamy, lets liken the scriptures unto ourselves:

Doctrine and Covenants 132
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law. 

So Emma needs to agree to the polygamous arrangements of her husband or she will.... DIE.
Wha? WHAT??
That's harsh.
Who will kill her?
THE LORD THY GOD... WILL DESTROY HER.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

If the first give consent? Of course she will give consent! Because if you haven't forgotten from an earlier verse if she does not give consent what will happen?

SHE WILL DIE.
Wha? WHAT??
That's harsh.
Who will kill her?
THE LORD THY GOD... WILL DESTROY HER.

Oh yeah facepalm.... totally give consent (two thumbs way up Emma, I'd pick door number one for consenting to sharing with the other nice ladies!)
But how many women might I be sharing my man with, Emma might ask?


 62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

TEN Emma, the answer is TEN. Or 33... who is counting?


Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi
23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.

Just to sum that up, very briefly: If you dwindle in unbelief you will turn dark. (Is black the word they are looking for?) and not just dark, but also filthy and also loathsome.
Because that is both totally scientific and not at all racist. Wonder if my new crush would appreciate this scripture?

Now if you are strong and procreative in context of faithfulness? You turn fair, previously the text said "white and delightsome" ... This was part of the many, many changes made over the years to the Book of Mormon. For the 'most correct' book on earth its needed a little tweaking.

4 Nephi 1
10 And now, behold, it came to pass that the people of Nephi did wax strong, and did multiply exceedingly fast, and became an exceedingly fair and delightsome people.

Is this right:

2 Nephi 29
 6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

No research on this one yet but.... When Lehi's families got the plates AND before Christ had come AND therefore before there was ANY New Testament... Were they calling it 'the Bible'? Or did Joseph sneak that in to account for extreme skepticism of his work?

What in holy hell are we teaching our daughters?

Moroni 9
9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—

So in regard to daughters being taken PRISONERS and RAPED.  They have lost THEIR chastity.

slow blink

blink...

blink...

THEY LOST CHASTITY and VIRTUE

because they were taken prisoner and raped?

CUE MOMMA BEAR scream!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and I haven't even gotten to, that in the first place, a woman's chastity and virtue is the most precious and dear thing about her ABOVE ALL ELSE?

Dear daughters, your sexuality is amazing. It is not the most important thing about you. It is not, nor ever will be. And if by horrific chance you are raped. You have done nothing wrong yourself. You have been wronged and are in need of nothing but justice.

PS. This scripture is referenced in Personal Progress.... and that is not ok.

Want more? Go here or here.


If I gave you a Book of Mormon. I am sorry, I wasn't really aware, like I thought I was.

"You are more moral than the God that they forced you to believe, that they conned you into accepting" - Matt Dillahunty

A better alternative for morality

I was really angry when I first dived into some of the atheist thinkers, they were just so offensive. Then I had to really examine how come I was offended by their denial of scripture, but not offended by the ill treatment of women IN the scriptures. 

Hello confirmation bias, My name is Janie.

eyes.

opened. 

PS. I'm not done. There is more, including the Old and New Testament. 

If you could just be mad with me too...

When I started reaching out here and there to people to talk about my 'faith' issues. I noticed a trend. No one would be mad with me. There was this invisible wall, a pedestal, so to say, where "The Church" got put up and they could only try to help me via spin if it didn't make the church look bad.

I didn't really want answers ALL the time. I got to the point where I knew those weren't really possible. I just wanted someone else to be mad too. I needed to know that it wasn't all an ivory tower.

Be mad with me! This is infuriating. I could stay if maybe we weren't stepford wiving this pretending all is great, when it is not. There is value here but we have tarnished it.

When I would say... babies right now are dying from 100% curable diseases and malnutrition. Babies will be born to malnourished mothers, live only knowing hunger and die in childhood only ever having known pain. That will happen now in 2013! And Gods one true church in the 'fullness of times' built a billion dollar mall. That should piss off logical people. I think it would piss off Jesus, When I try to picture myself believing in a savior again he's tearing up shit at City Creek mall angry as hell.

But no one was mad. They talked about asset protection, portfolios, future endeavors of the church, investing, using the profit for more good... It was like I had gone crazy, or I was the last sane one in the room.

"I've been to City Creek. Its nice"

nuclear facepalm.

Thing is, I don't care what businesses do. I care what churches do. We gave tithing to do GOOD. To build houses of the Lord and what not and for humanitarian aid. Every relief fund I had nothing left for I didn't feel so bad. I was giving to an organization who knew how 'to do what is right and let the consequence follow."

When I found out about Joseph Smith having 33 wives. I was flaber.gasted! This can't be, surely people who have never been in the waters of baptism or sat through four years of early morning seminary can't know more about Joseph Smith than me...

Nope oh wait a second. They totally do.

But no one from a blindly faithful perspective could be mad with me. Even when I asked parents to their face "would you be ok with your fourteen year old marrying the prophet even if she didn't want to?"

Except for one exception I can think of - I got either blank stares, redirection or a reluctant yes.

Two roads diverged in a wood.... And I'm taking whichever one you are not taking.

I began to see 'faith' for what it really was: the ability to abandon reason and even good moral sense to preserve what you want to believe.

No one if they weren't conditioned to think otherwise could read a report (names removed) of what Joseph Smith did and be ok with it.

Would the body of the church have voted to build a mall?

Or how about the scriptures? Rape, incest, genocide, slavery. Most bad things in the bible were done by God.

Then there is my new frustration. Sandy Hook happened because we took "God out of school"

oh my stars above.

God is so vindictive that if he doesn't get praise all the time in all locations he totally stays his hand in the face of unadulterated violence?  If I did what god did, I knew a man was walking toward a school with guns and ammo and intent to kill and did NOTHING. What would society think of me? I think those would be criminal charges am I right?

God's way is - "I know that child will be raped. I will wait until that is over then one day, one day I will punish that perpetrator."

That is how it goes. God can never ever ever ever lose with the faithful. Good things were because of god. Bad things were because:

God is not bad, people are.
He is protecting free will.
He can't show himself that would destroy faith.
It was a trial for you.
Unanswered prayers are blessings too.
His ways are not our ways
He works in mysterious ways

So we look for the tender mercies and table all the times we are ignored. We pray for cell destruction and re-growth for the ones we love with cancer. But we know better than to pray for the amputee to re-grow a limb. We know that doesn't happen. I mean, we aren't silly.

Things came to a head one day for me. You can mess with me god but don't mess with my kids. One of mine was feeling particularly vulnerable and rejected. I won't share much of the details beyond that but to aid this situation we needed a little intervention. I prayed.

I prayed hard, hard, hard.

We need to get out of this, their tender feelings are on the line lord. Anything. Let the power go out in the building. Anything we just need to go and save face simultaneously.

Nothing happened.

The disappointment was faced and we left when we were supposed to, both of us silently cried the way home.

I got past it that night when I realized. I was only talking to myself.

And it was totally liberating. Sad yes. But there was immense peace to realizing I wasn't being ignored. I was not unworthy. There were no more mental gymnastics to do trying to understand why it was a "miracle" that an acquaintance found her nordstroms gift card but god's will that babies are starving and being shot.

This life was mine. No one was judging me from the sky or Kolob. I had one life to live and I wasn't wasting it anymore begging for help that may not come.

"for with god all things are possible" except - well, world hunger and jamming the guns of school shooters.

Faith is like a little seed.

Yeah, yeah... you are tired of the religious posts. Sorry but rule numero uno, write for yourself and only for yourself. Start writing for anyone else (besides a lover) and your voice is gone. If this offends your general senses especially ones that depend on faith, turn back now. No really its the internet - there is a button around here somewhere that will take you to LDS general conference memes.

I am going to sum up a podcast that I listened to about the psychology of religion. It can be found here.  Fair warning, its long. Two studies popped out to me that have stayed banging around in my brain. I will butcher them now. (I could re-listen and find said studies and read the abstracts) But 'ain't nobody got time for that'

Line experiment:

Graph at the front of the room with lines at varying heights. Line C is by far the tallest line. Without remarkable eye sight difficulties it would be difficult to not see that line C is the tallest. When alone in the room as near to 100% as you can get will say line C is the tallest. One subject in a room with 4 or 5 other people who they think are also other subjects (but they are actually moles - just researchers in street clothes). With the moles present the subject is last to be asked:

"Which line is the tallest"

Before them each of the other individuals will answer first and they will all say "Line A is tallest"

Line A

Line A

Line A

Line A

When this happens the rate at which the actual tallest line is identified drops to ... I don't remember now, in the 30ish%. Its just so hard after hearing four or five other people say Line A for you to say Line C. Even though you know line C is tallest.

Now when just ONE mole changes their answer:

Line A

Line C

Line A

Line A

The rates that the subject will say the correct line jump WAY back up.

Pretend you like it experiment:

"Say you like it till you do."

Subjects are brought in and asked to do a mind numbing pointless task, move these pegs from these holes to these holes, then back for THIRTY STRAIGHT MINUTES.  Till you want to poke your eyes out with the pegs. That mind numbing.

Participants are asked to rate their satisfaction with the task, as expected rates of satisfaction were not high.

Now same task, same amount of time, same mind numb. Except this time before rating their satisfaction they are ask to do a solid for the researcher. He has to go to the bathroom, can the subject head out to the waiting room and explain the importance of participating in this study. Just tell the person that its of value to the academic community blah, blah and that it was a rather enjoyable experience. They do head out and to the next participant SAY that they actually rather kind of enjoyed doing an absolutely mundane task for thirty minutes of their life.

THEN they are asked about rate of satisfaction with the task that they did. The group that gave the pitch had significantly higher rates of satisfaction. Just because they said they liked it, they ended up kind of liking it.

Now apply the commentary of these two social experiments to lets say a testimony meeting:

You might have "doubts" in your mind or as I have come to realize, logic and reason nagging at you. But you hear one after the other, Line A, Line A, Line A, Line A, from the oldest to the tiniest members coached with whispered breath say Line A Line A Line A.... and you begin push down in your mind the voice saying nuh-uh. Its C.

Then you are told to say it till you mean it, sell the pitch.

A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it. Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that 'leap of faith,' as the philosophers call it. - Richard Wirthlin

Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them. - Dallin Oaks

So month after month, Sunday after Sunday, meeting after meeting, You listen to the echo chamber of belief and if you still don't have your own, say it anyway. 

Line A

Line A

Line A

I know this church is true.

I know this church is true.

I know this church is true. 

I know this church is true.

if there is a god,

 he ain't mormon

I did not go looking to lose my faith. I was pretty happy where I was in my fog of faith when I tripped up on church history issues. In fact I was being a member missionary to Joni when I was appalled at some claims she made on her blog. I decided I'd fact check them myself, surely being raised in the church, being a seminary graduate and years of gospel doctrine I would have heard about this... that lead me to the wives of Joseph Smith, then Joseph's multiple accounts of the first vision, then the witnesses to the book of mormon saying they didn't see it with their real eyes but their "spiritual" eyes. Then further. 

But more telling to me was the response I got from those who I talked to about my "issues".  I noticed a trend. Start with the conclusion, make information fit to that conclusion, depend solely on the subjective, and when really hard pressed say "I don't know" or "you just got to have faith". 

Subjective:  Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external

God is not the god of confusion, God is unchanging...

Well all I could find in my research was a big steamy pile of confusion shrouded in changes. 

Take for instance women. We hear talk a lot in the church about how important prophets were then so they should be now, because why would God want a mouthpiece for his people then for revelation and not now? That wouldn't make any sense.

So then why do women now dismiss polygamy because "well I don't need to worry about it, its not asked of ME now." What? Are we better women now than them, do we deserve better than they did?

Or the reverse -- Why is there a prophetess in the Old Testament? But not today?

How come looking back we know easily when a prophet was just "speaking as a man" but we don't seem to realize that in the moment. 1978 was NOT that long ago. The year I was born a black active LDS family would not be admitted into a temple. 

IF we are the one true church with direct revelation from God... one of those sides of the equation is off. Either the church is not true. Or god is a racist jerkface.

OR Option 3. Its all man-made. Funny how whatever opinion the person/church holds they seem convinced its god's directive as well. 

How about the scriptures? You are a loving parent you communicate with your children and THAT is the end result? Lots of bloodshed, rape, incest, murder, slavery, polygamy...spattered with loving sentiments and contradictions. 

How about the ten commandments? If you knew you would die tomorrow and you could only leave 10 rules about life for your children would FOUR be about how they think/worship YOU? 

It was all a ball of crazy as soon as I allowed myself to NOT look at it subjectively but objectively. 

Objective: Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices

Then I started to notice that what I was hearing by those trying to help were rationalizations. 

Men rationalizing polygamy involving 14 year olds, women rationalizing their husbands being sealed to other women after they die. Many rationalizing not supporting gay marriage because it went against what "they believed". Many, many rationalizing building a mall while babies died from starvation. 

I don't know really what was the right choice but I stayed active for a long time when it was very hard. I kept going to church for months and months after I truly stopped believing. I was fighting to believe so I might not have even admitted "non-belief" to myself then. But it was there. 

I think that continuing to go has had its pros and cons, Pros in that I became truly solidified in my decisions. Kyle and I got on the same page gradually as inconsistencies became glaring. (That happens when you set aside the prejudice toward belief.) We could introduce questioning to the kids before we stopped going. 

The biggest con was that it started my hulk phase: 

I got angry. I could only see people I love unwilling to see what they are committed to. Finding out the truth about the church is like seeing your best friends husband with another woman. You tell her but she doesn't believe you. Her marriage is worth more than the truth to her. 

I want to shake every member by the shoulders and say. 

ITS NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS.

ITS JUST NOT.

Yes I know there is so much good... but there is good elsewhere!

Its like a cookie, a really really good cookie, but one chocolate chip is actually dog poop. 

Pascals Wager:

An argument in philosophy: It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or does not exist. Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God.  (from here)

In short Pascals wager is "what if you are wrong" 

I saw merit in that argument for a long time. If you are a faithful LDS member you will most likely lead a very good life. (that is if you are not gay, or feminist, or, I digress) So why not live as if the church is true and all will be ok either way. 

Rather than leave and it be true...

Well its like this you see,

You give up A LOT to be mormon. 

You are told what congregation to attend.
You don't request which calling you would like you are offered one 

Who to visit to teach and who will visit you.

Meetings and more meetings and meetings about meetings.

Told what to wear and what to eat and what to drink.

Admonished to have families be totally self reliant give 10% of your income, and then some more.
Spend your precious little time for date night at the temple as often as possible. 

Don't ask where that money goes. 

Spend 10,000 on a mission

Support your leaders no. matter. what.
Indexing!

But what if THIS is it. What if this beautifully wonderful fantastic but short life is IT.

Just think about that for a moment. A short life, now take away the time you must sleep. The time you must work. The time you must shower and eat. Take away your childhood and your very old age. What do you have left? 

Not tons of time. In that small slice of pie left do I want to spend it at mormon meetings hearing many of the same things over and over again, many inconsistencies and logical fallacies? Spend all that time talking about helping our fellow man but really just indexing? Indexing a lot. We like the dead, they don't ask as many questions about church history.

So Pascals wager doesn't work for me. 

IF there is a god.

IF that god is logical.

I will be judged for how I acted not what was in my head.

IF they are reasonable I can explain why I rejected what I rejected. Why I kept what I kept.

Even if I professed belief I would be lying.

If when I die, I go back to being elements for life on this earth to continue. If 3020 is the same to me as 1720 was, then I am going use every second of this life while I have it to live. I'll be honest with myself. Share my story. Help others. Enjoy my time, my body, my family. 

I have noticed myself moving through the Kubler-Ross stages of grief. Just a little out of order, I've done denial, then bargaining, then depression, Now its anger. But little by little acceptance is taking hold. 

I feel like airing the rest of my frustrations will move me solidly into peace. I am making new friends. We are filling our lives with new endeavors and activities. Its staggering to realize how embedded the church was in our lives. Freeing to know its gone. 

fin.

Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence - unknown

He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. - William Drummond

Don't cry for me ... In which I address a patronizing blog comment.

I was just thinking about you and decided to read what was happening on your end since I don't get to read your Facebook posts anymore, but I feel so sad for you Janie. You let others talk you out of what you once knew to be true. That is what Satan wanted all along and he sure did get you good. I hope that one day you will come back and feel the goodness and mercy of the Atonement of the Savior. He loves you. And He weeps for this choice you have made. But He also awaits with open arms. 

A peek into Mormon passive aggression. I just want to break down this comment since there may be other readers thinking the same thing. 

1. "I feel so sad for you Janie."

I have also had someone say to my face "You are so sad." to which I replied no in fact I am not and that is offensive... to which they came back with "No you are saaaaadddd" (Picture puppy dog face and condescension) 

To anyone who is concerned, I am genuinely not sad. There were dark times coming to the realization that what I believed and what I was taught, and what I was teaching my children was inaccurate. Being on the fence, living for a year+ as an active Mormon deciding how to proceed, fighting for answers. That was hard. Life now is sweet and full of freedom and active truth seeking. Even IF I was sad, or IF you feel sad for me that is generally a rude thing to haphazardly claim about some one's life especially through a blog comment. I'd reserve statements of that nature for your closest friends and family. 

2.   "You let others talk you out of what you once knew to be true."

OH MY STARS ABOVE. no. just no.  No one talked me out of anything, In fact there was NO one to really talk to about this. This has inspired me to fully address my deconversion story it is way too much to outline in one post. But this sentence alone shows me that the person is not really a blog reader of mine, did not follow my faith crisis posts or does not have the intellect to follow the reasoning that I had to go through. 

Or how about this? Talk me back into it. Who even talked me into the church in the first place? I was baptized when I still believed in Santa Claus. Think about that for a minute. I took the Gospel SERIOUSLY, I stumbled onto questionable church history WHILE I WAS BEING A GOOD MEMBER MISSIONARY. I took the entire process slowly from the first two emails to close friends to talks with the Bishops and scriptorians not a single issue I have struggled with has been met with satisfactory answers. So before you throw out something as simple as that someone talked me out of.... why don't you address the issues instead? 

3. "what Satan wanted all along and he sure did get you good. " 

Oh I forgot how shame ridden and fearful the gospel truly is... Satan is out to get you and don't stray from whatever correlated church materials there are or the scriptures because social isolationists and the Devil await. This is what my life looks like now:

I raise my children, I take care of my home (not well enough) Kyle and I are madly in love, we watch a little TV at night sometimes religious vs. atheism debates and yell at the logical fallacies like its football, if we get to bed after the kids but before we are exhausted we make love, I read too much and blab some on facebook, I breastfeed two babies several times a day, I am building new friendships, I teach and help moms have great births, I take my kids to the park, sometimes we swim, soon I will have four in school, we barely scrap by but still try to give a little to things like the Wounded Warriors Project and Midwifery charities. I might say more bad words than I like but I do try hard to help others. 

If I am the product of Satan's evil grasp then the world should not be too worried. I think most would be ok with me as a neighbor. 

Public Service Announcment - Satan does not exist - I already addressed that here. 

4. " I hope that one day you will come back and feel the goodness and mercy of the Atonement of the Savior "

I find the concept of the Atonement illogical. I addressed that here 

And there is no need for you to hope or worry, I prayed haaard, hard, hard when I was going through this and I made it clear to any deities anywhere what I would need for belief. I'll let you know if they get back to me. Answers would also be good ... but those aren't to be had. Just ask this guy. 

5. "He loves you."

And Santa Claus loves you. 

6. "And He weeps for this choice you have made."

And... we are back to shame. This is the 'I know what Jesus thinks', I have peered into his thoughts and he told me that you made him cry. 

So thank you for coming to my blog and letting me know I made Jesus cry. Since you can know his thoughts can you also let me know if it made him cry when his Prophet Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl, even though she didn't want to?


7. "But He also awaits with open arms."

Ok cool. Since ya'll are so tight and all, can you get him a message?

There are babies dying from malaria ...

right. 
now.

'preciate it. 

What if you built your own religion?

Listening to a podcast one day the caller questioned whether or not humanism could properly address racism and its negative effects. Matt Dillahunty explained a concept that I had never been exposed to before and I can't stop thinking about it:

To address equality ...Think of any system (a company, a family, a school, a religion, government, city, state, country, world) And 'build' it not knowing what part of it you will be.

So if you were to build a company, you would imagine and design every facet and position within not knowing if when the business is set to go what part in it you will be. You will pull out of a hat your position - it could be CEO or it could be janitor. If the world really operated liked that could it be a lot better?

It has also been a strong confirmation to me that the church is not true.

If a man sat a drawing board with the instruction to build a religion but wouldn't know if he'd wake up a female in that faith... I don't think most religions would look the way that they do.

In Mormonism would men be comfortable making their covenants through their spouse?
Or spending more on the young men's youth programs than the young women's?
Or having only men sitting up on the stand?
Would the hierarchy of the church be all male?
Priesthood limited to men?
Would polygamy and polyandry have taken place?
Would the LGBT community be so poorly treated?

I also read that if all that is known about religion and science were to disappear tomorrow, science would eventually get back to where it is now, religion could return but it would be different.


Here is the segment that has been brain food to chew on.


I have spent a lot of time reading, watching religion debates and being absolutely inspired by Neil deGrasse Tyson, its fascinating what you can learn when you step out of your worldview and open up to new concepts

Nola's Blessing Day

On a sunny day we went to the park as a family to bless our sweet Nola with our thoughts and hopes for her. While we have had a major change in our life, abandoning all tradition is not something we were ready for, and this was very special because we could all participate in a way we couldn't in a traditional LDS baby blessing. 

We all said what we hoped for Nola's future, every single family member. Grandma talked about the bond with her even before her birth. Popa Tony expressed how very cool her name is. Nana spoke of her never ending smile and hope for that joy to continue. Brothers and Sisters all said "I love you" in their way and we are so glad you are in our family. Aunt Meg talked about how we need each other as a family and each other's help. Kyle and I expressed deep deep love for her, our baby. 

Since this was a first for me, I wrote mine down, and after all was said we released the balloons to celebrate her future.

Nola Anne this is a different blessing than the one I thought about for you, but you are way too loved to let this moment pass without welcoming your life and blessing you with our hopes for the future

You own no one any thing but being good natured to others and pursuing the happiness this world has to offer.

Go where you heart leads you while knowing there are all of us here around you now that love you more than you can comprehend