Sometimes people send me sermons.

My response to a sermon a friend asked me to listen to - it can be found here

Sermon from 5/18/14 at Chase Oaks Church.

I sent my notes to the preacher, Jeff Jones, his personal assistant said he would be responding shortly but he never did.

My friend said my notes made her think, I asked her about talking to her preacher about a few things out of curiosity. She said although she had been attending there for five years she had never actually met or talked to the guy. Interesting.

I don't think you need to listen to the sermon necessarily to read the notes but you can if you would like to:

This will be sort of stream of consciousness from notes I took as I listened to the sermon, "Boycott the boycotts". I might use the language of speaking for all non-believers when I don't, just like I know the preacher does not speak for all Christians.

Starts with comparing the church's outlook to DNA. Its interesting to me that religion tries more and more to relate to science. One can respect science and be religious, but any effort to make religion seem scientific when it has no regard for evidence makes me suspect.

"We all have tricky relationships'…. Yes part of the human condition J

Breakdown of Christianity vs. culture…

This is where it kind of lost me logically. It’s a false dichotomy, an "us vs. them",  in-group/out-group thing that is frustrating about religion to begin with.

And it avoids the issue that within the faith that dichotomy exists on its own. Culture is ALL of us in the community, Christians contribute both good and bad to the culture as much if not more so than non-Christians. Especially given the fact that Christians whether they feel marginalized or not, ARE the majority.

"the people of this culture think differently from the bible"

GOOD.  One does need to ask the difficult question: is the bible even worth following? It espouses genocide, infanticide, rape, murder and slavery. The atonement of Jesus bypasses the question of could a loving parent deity not just forgive? why not? Why demand a blood sacrifice? Many non theists today are not unfamiliar with the bible. They don't abandon it to sin, they looked at it, examined it closely and reject it due to its own lack of merit. Christians don't need to bear a burden of exposing us to the bible. The claims of Christianity are already accessible.

Scientifically, markers of well-being improve the less religious a society is.

Then there were questions raised in the sermon about the Christian influence and does it cause the desired influence or more backlash. Then the scriptures were gone to specifically in Corinthians. Detailed description of Corinth and comparisons to Vegas, etc. Which I had many head scratching moments of wondering where the evidence for all these claims were. Do we have any historical evidence for this information of Corinth outside of the bible itself?.. but laying the lack of back up details to the back burner …
- lets move on to the topic. I'll paraphrase but the general idea I got was that this chapter sets up the premise that it is ok to judge and rebuke fellow Christ followers for their sins but the church does not have that jurisdiction outside of the church.

Then the sermon took a dark turn for me in the details of how to rebuke fellow church goers "get in their way"  "get them off the path" (on the path to sin) We may reject you from the fellowship because that IS biblical.. because we love you and don't want you on that path. It felt like a kind way of thought policing the congregation, sic them on each other. I’m sorry but that would keep me out of a congregation even IF I had belief.

Then my notes go on… I jotted down 'individual is king', 'Christ followers are family of god' - 'different standard', my memory is fuzzy but I took some umbrage at this false dichotomy as well.

Of all the "family" references I think it overlooked that many people that consider themselves humanists do look at the entire global community as family. The human family, all with shared trials and issues. In fact many humanists like myself are absolutely appalled at all the social injustices that continues everywhere. The overhead at churches alone could feed so many starving children, help end child pornography, etc. Now I don't want to create my own illogical comparison. Churches do offer community support and help with social causes and freethinking groups have overhead as well. It just seemed to me there were a lot of made up problems in this sermon that aren't even on the docket of the worlds most pressing problems. First world Christian problems if I may borrow a popular phrase.

Then from this point it was, if I could so crassly sum up: Be nice to the world because people are starting to think we are jerks. Its not our job to picket… side story about gay week at Disney, which I think if I had been a gay member of the congregation would have made me very uncomfortable, While there was no degrading of gay people there was an air of "they are the out-group" to that example. And it was noble of Disney to treat them as guests. Which, while that is absolutely true. We need to move on from that even being a conversation. Gay people are just people. Plain and simple, they don’t need anyone's ire or noble "I'm pointing out that we aren't pointing you out because we want to be good Christians"

Then admonitions to engage culture vs. fighting the culture. Increase your opportunities to have influence. Life is better when you follow what god has approved (ignoring for a moment that even across Christianity that can't be agreed on), Infiltrate and influence.. live so that people want to know where your peace comes from so they ask what your reason for hope is.

This is where I have a few things to say about that:

1. Christians already have vast influence in culture, schools, politics, and the market.

2. You put a lot of pressure on your congregants to exude happiness at all times, they have been challenged to represent Christianity with their glowing stories so that others will see their reasons for hope. There were people listening with very real problems and probably some with depression or other mental illnesses. They don't need the pressure of being the poster child for Christianity.

3. There is also the connotation that non-believers, atheists like myself don't have hope. We can, and do live lives of happiness, our countenance can also be inspiring to others and people can be influenced with our happiness and love even when our basis for that is not rooted in Christianity (or any faith) for that matter.

4. Many Christians speak openly about their faith ad nauseam. It might not be adding to the goal Christians have. Many of the people that are leaving religion (that number is rapidly growing)  are asking very deep, very probing questions. Trite pronouncements of faith and hope and love is not moving the conversation forward.

SO in short, I am very pleased with the concept of showing love more than judgment. Those nuggets I was impressed with but overall I think there was a lack of understanding for the group in which you labeled 'culture' and excluded yourself from being a part of.

It might come as a surprise but to some degree Christians like Westboro Baptists are considered (while completely vile) more intellectually honest. They unabashedly take the Bible at its face value, Christians that move the goalposts, claim truth but speak in vagueness confuse me more.  Address us all as the humans that we are, address your religion with better evidence and that will gain more influence for those not engaging with Christianity anymore.

let me know where I was off base.

Mr Jones talking to the insiders, here. 

Questioning Mormonism?

Shout out to anyone in the Dallas Fort Worth area, join us on Facebook or meetup at DAMIT "Dallas area Mormons in transition" 

We are having some fantastic Family home evenings and enrichment nights ;) please spread the word to anyone who could use the local support. 

My Book of Mormon

Still an admitted podcast addict here, the line up changes over time and I move with the topics that interest me. I have slowly moved away from Mormon podcasts. Except when this one came across my field of view the idea made me laugh. An non-believer completely unfamiliar with the LDS church is reading the Book of Mormon, cover to cover stopping to add his impressions along the way.

So many cling to it (I did) giving it merit that if read with any degree of critical thinking is not really merited. At its core the Book of Mormon is racist. Native Americans are dark because of a curse.

Ancient Isrealites came across the ocean and had epic battles of thousands to millions of  people with steel swords. Oh and horses, and elephants.... I don't know that it can be held up at all without severe cherry picking.

With some twitter exchanges with David and a few emails later, I was interviewed.

I think I deserve a cookie for condensing my 'story' into under 2 minutes.

My Book of Mormon Podcast, Episode 16 

Thanks Joseph Smith, Jr.

We could do it

If anyone could, It would be us

I'd navigate my doubts

And we would be an anomaly

Then you said,  "This."

"This, I won't talk about with you"

That moment told me more than ALL the books

It was a vast library in one statement

If tables were turned

I would have read every book for you

Faced every question you asked,  "This"

"This I will talk about with you"

You never yelled, never got mad

You put it in a compartment and ignored

Being ignored hurts more

Solitary amongst the noise

It faded away, talking waned to typing

typing became mere texts

You still can't talk

And I can no longer be ignored

Water moved under the bridge

A sea of change in droplets

The new question now was - What hurts more?

Watching it rot? or Watching it burn?

If you would only talk to me

What scares you more-

That I might be hateful?

Or that I might be logical?

The erosion of friendship painted a mural

A game of percentages

Day to day casual of the 75 percent yet never

Authenticity for the whole

I went all in

And called the bluff

Talk to me or I've had enough

Again I heard that I had heard before

"This"

"This, I won't talk about with you"

Out of self preservation

I toe tagged the friendship

Had I killed it or only admitted defeat?

Put out on the table

What could not be said

Can the devout walk with those who doubt?

Can the apostate and the believer

See eye to eye?

They can only try.

But us?
We could not talk about it. 

Where in the world is Janie...

Oh blogging.... I can't give you up but I often let you down. My mom's story sits there looking at me. I wait for her next installment. She is quite a writer isn't she? I've had to assure people in my life that no she is not making it up. Those are real people, they are/were characters but very very real. I love how her words have brought the stories back to the surface and brought them to life. This past Sunday watching Cosmos -- The part where the ode to the written word of humans is highlighted I thought of my mom's story and was immensely grateful to her for putting it down for me and future family members to read.

So this is my "one year post" Yes its about religion so for those who are sensitive to that topic you can tune out now.

I can't believe I don't have a specific date for the 'last Sunday' we attended church. It was such a long time coming that when we actually stopped it was a non-event in a way. I have a few snapshots in my mind. Like the phone call about a ride to scouts. And me saying "We won't be doing that anymore."

Like for this week/month?

"No like ... ever."

A few last things related to callings dropped off and a few final emails. And then that was about it. The living room and bishop's office sit-downs had already occurred.

In honor of this post, I even looked up my very first email to friends from the nebulous beginning of my questioning:

So I am having a crisis of faith apparently and I think Kyle doesn't know what to say to me anymore - so I have been praying about it and I keep thinking I need to talk about it. Because 1) you are smarter and more learned in the scriptures than I am and 2) I don't think my mumblings would negatively affect your faith.

I've tried to kind of quell my own mumblings but my thoughts get circular on the subject and its frustrating. Then I thought I'd bring it up one day in person - but that may be awkward.  So anyway - its so cliche too - A LDS woman struggling with the topic of polygamy - but I am struggling whether it is cliche or not.

Specifically about Joseph Smith.

And it all really boils down to the fact that my whole life I did not know he had what? 30 wives - to this day I still don't know details - and its very precarious to try to research it online - you know what kind of stuff is online - which I have avoided. 

but through what I feel were honest sources (not anti) I did find more. And it was unsettling. Mainly this point - that he hid the marriage ( to a girl who was only 17) from Emma and quote :

Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage.  He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...”

those words keep echoing in my mind, 

So I tried to let it go and turn to the scriptures only and choked spiritually on section 132 like I have before.

I feel like I could overcome the topic if it didn't seem hidden by the church. How many members today if asked would only know Emma asJoseph's wife - do these other women not deserve recognition - they bore him children... If it was my daughter I would not want her swept under the rug.

I feel like I can't move away from this and when "Joseph Smith" is said in church I ache. I mean if a man did that in the ward right now he'd be ostracized.

on a similar vein - Men being able to be sealed after the death of their wife and women not being able to. I can't. get. over. it.

anyway. I am going to pray more and fast.

I am sorry - feel free to think I am crazy and tell me to take it up with the bishop. 

 Almost like the pain of childbirth, I can't really remember the pain I felt then. I know it was real and deep and agonizing. But I have none of that anymore.
In fact I've come very close to not writing this "anniversary" post at all. But I'm going to do it anyway... what's that they say about an unexamined life...

Questioning in earnest Jan of 2011, Open disaffection August 2012, Left sometime February 2013, Resignation (Names removed) June 2013

So where am I now? where are we as a family?

Me:

To answer the oft asked question... so what do you believe now? I took that question seriously when posed to me and I started really diving into what it was that excited me. I have found such a renewed interest in science, specifically scientific skepticism. Found the old copy of Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Dove headfirst into some great science podcasts and discovered to my delight there is a vast network of modern skeptics that work to promote the beauty of science and the benefit of critical thinking.

In the social adrift state after leaving the church my natural inclination was to turn to the many crunchy mom groups and natural birth community groups. I have found dear friends in those circles.

Sadly though, I noticed the trend emerge that many things were still dogma based. A set of "rules" that were incontrovertibly true to many in these circles. Science denial often trumps when certain topics come up (vaccines, homeopathy, diet extremism, etc.) I felt I had in a sense jumped from the frying pan into the fire.

One night at dinner with a very cool friend who felt somewhat abandoned by a birth network she was a part of for political reasons she said "I thought one day instead of making myself fit in a place, I'll make my own damn place."

Brilliance!  I was a person with a foot in two worlds. A new found skeptic thirsting for science but still the babywearing extended breastfeeder who had two babies born out of the hospital. So I worked to find my own place to fit. And I started the Crunchy Skeptics group on facebook. It has helped me come in contact with some absolutely marvelous people. I've made wonderful new friends and have some fantastic people as admins. Several scientists, doctors, nurses, journalists, midwives, birth professionals, and more offer support and advice in the group. We chew articles up and debate the real data. We know logical fallacies and point them out readily. I have found the convos there to be unparalleled to most online groups. I know its *just* facebook but its really been a fantastic way for me to focus my time and effort doing what I love: chatting.

Us as a family:

We are now attending Fellowship of Freethought (meets once a month). Always interesting topics and the kids learn some great things about science or the natural world in their classes.
We are hoping to send the oldest three to Camp Quest this summer and Kyle and I will be volunteers.
We are all super excited to be watching the remake of the Cosmos series. This fuels my Neil deGrasse Tyson fangirling which makes everyone only roll their eyes a little bit more at me.
We are going camping with new friends again this weekend.
Wow... Sundays actually spent relaxing. FOR. THE. WIN.


Over the past couple of years I have felt some of the most difficult pain ever. Only rivaled by the pain of losing my father and brother, and it even encompassed that pain as well. I am so glad to be on the other side of it. I think of people like my husband, my mother, my sister, my mother in law, my older children, a few friends who have just listened to me over and over and over again through all of this. For new friends that I never would have met if not for my path of great change. I am a better person for having such open minded people in my life.

I have also lost many friends. And I am close to the point of forgiveness now. At first I felt rejected, then I rejected the relationships myself. It just is what it is. Its almost like a color. I like the color of those friendships very much, I just don't know quite how to incorporate them into the decor of my life now. I hope some day I/we will figure that out.

I was asked the other day if you could go back and not know what you know about the church would you?

At first I would have said yes.

Now? not only no. but hell no.

My life is richer for all the things I've learned.

PS. In other news, Kyle's hair has gotten a lot longer and his vas deferens shorter ;) 

Faith I would like to introduce you to Epistemology

I want to take something back.

I characterized my transition out of the church as a "faith crisis" and quite frankly I don't want to call it that anymore. It wasn't a crisis. It was difficult and emotional and generally a suck fest, but crisis? nah. And that term 'faith crisis' implies in some sense that I had created the problem.

A while back I ran into someone, a mormon friend, and since our time was brief I didn't want to bring it up, but it came up anyway. "How is the ward?"

good, as far as I know. (non committal answer)

"How is the family?"

great.

"So what is your calling these days?"

ummm. Actually we left the church in February.

"WHAT? silence.....
that doesn't sound like you."

On the drive home that phrase bounced around in my head like a ping pong ball. "doesn't sound like you"  it irritated me. It had nothing to do with me really. I dug into church history to solidify my faith, not lose it. What I found was NOT of my doing. History was history, I could not change it and I could not put it on the crumbling shelf anymore. How was I, almost 200 years later, dealing with the fallout of some other man's lies?
In the moment of our conversation. I gave my elevator pitch of my main reasons for leaving. She said what I had heard before:

"I know Joseph saw what he saw and did what he did."

And there it was, the "I know" I kept the conversation polite and kind but I thought:
NO YOU DON'T KNOW. You don't know. You just don't know. You just don't. I don't and YOU don't.

You have faith, but I no longer see the value in faith. Faith is lack of evidence. Or in the case of mormonism belief not only with lack of evidence but against a mountain of conflicting evidence. Faith is pretending to know something that you just don't know. Faith brings you here rather quickly:

cre·du·li·ty

krəˈd(y)o͞olitē/

noun

1. 1.

   a tendency to be too ready to believe that something is real or true.

When you really think about it, it's the things we have little evidence for that we keep fighting to believe. We are warned over and over again that our testimonies need "strengthening". What else in life once we have solid evidence for, do we need to keep strengthening our belief in?

Studying epistemology, thinking about thinking has really changed my entire world view. When religious, there were vast areas of science and ideas that I was just not participating in. I have this new world open to me and it doesn't deal in a realm where I have to suspend my logic. There were so so so many things that just never made sense to me.

I am still in the stage of processing. I am abandoning my native tongue. I can't just get up off my knees brush off the dirt and keep walking without deconstructing what I had worked so hard for - but now there is a whistle while I work.

When people share their stories now I'm not so much interested in what they know as much as how they know.

“There exists in society a very special class of persons that I have always referred to as the Believers. These are folks who have chosen to accept a certain religion, philosophy, theory, idea or notion and cling to that belief regardless of any evidence that might, for anyone else, bring it into doubt. They are the ones who encourage and support the fanatics and the frauds of any given age. No amount of evidence, no matter how strong, will bring them any enlightenment. - James Randi

Map out your questioning.

I have new advice. Over time, since I have been open about my disaffection, some have in confidence shared that they are also doubting the church's claims. They wonder what resources might help. I generally share the sources that I found to be credible or at least not intensely slanted in either direction for or against the church.

Now that its not quite so emotional, I have started to think back over the map of my own apostasy and I wish I could do it over again. So here goes for time machine advice to myself:

First, Deeply consider one question:

IF there is evidence that the church is not what it claims to be, do you want to know?

For me the answer is yes because the truth is that important to me that I have a grasp on it even if it does not meld with what I want to be true. But if you can not say the same, do not go any further. When you stumble on info like Joseph Smith sent men on missions and married their wives while they were away. Or that he had sex with other women then when found out, claimed divine intervention, or that there are multiple versions of the first vision. IF those do not sit well in your mind, or you are capable of doubting the sources. Then by all means do that. Do exactly what Uctdorf says and doubt the doubts.

If like me, you must know, you want information from as many direct sources as possible and trained historians. Then here is the advice from my perspective:


1. Stop and breathe, decide in your mind that no matter what, you will take the process slowly. Read and investigate voraciously but continue to live as you are, no brash decision to stop going to church or activities. I think it actually helped my leaving that I went to church every Sunday during my disaffection and research.

2. Value objectivism over emotion. Religion is emotional and deals with our deepest existential fears. Table those emotions as best you can.

3. DO NOT CONTINUE ON WITH LDS MATERIAL at this point. Stop and start somewhere else:
-Get a very firm grip on logical fallacies and how to formulate an argument without flaws.
-Investigate the basic debates on deities.
-Decide your personal parameters for investigating truth.

4. Go back to the scriptures with the expectation that the creator of all the universe be somewhat logical. This site has scriptures organized by topic to aid your reading. Consider how you would communicate with your children and compare the information in the scriptures, including slavery and racism. In other words go read your scriptures but let critical thinking trump your feelings.

5. When you have a working knowledge of logical fallacies and investigating claims rationally return to investigating general claims of Mormonism but not church history yet. I'd start with rationalizing the plan of salvation: Pre-existence

6. Read books by non-believers and how they arrived there.
Losing my Religion by Lobdell
Deconverted by Seth Andrews
Why People Believe Weird Things by Shermer

7. Get into science.
StarTalk Radio
Big Think
The most astounding fact
Storytelling of Science
Radiolab

8. Now you are ready to Dig into church history.

9. Make your list of reasons to stay and reasons to leave, defend both positions logically to yourself.

10. Share with loved ones slowly and carefully as you feel ready. Preface conversations with the hope that the conversation can remain objective. "We discuss without tearful testimony sharing"


I went through my journey backwards, I was full of emotion and anger and had no clue about logical arguments so while I flopped like a dying fish - unable to recapture belief but fearful of the supernatural everything in my life was scary. I waited for signs that would never come. Every flat tire or tight paycheck was a sign of doom that I was a bad person just for questioning. A pregnancy laden with fear because surely I would be punished or have "blessings withheld".

Paradigm shifts are extremely difficult, they can only be handled rationally or you will be tugged at from every single direction with your free will abused with emotion, personal history, relationships, love and want.

Reason, Observation and Experience — the Holy Trinity of Science — have taught us that happiness is the only good; that the time to be happy is now, and the way to be happy is to make others so. This is enough for us. In this belief we are content to live and die. If by any possibility the existence of a power superior to, and independent of, nature shall be demonstrated, there will then be time enough to kneel. Until then, let us stand erect. - Robert Ingersoll

Faith is like a little seed.

Yeah, yeah... you are tired of the religious posts. Sorry but rule numero uno, write for yourself and only for yourself. Start writing for anyone else (besides a lover) and your voice is gone. If this offends your general senses especially ones that depend on faith, turn back now. No really its the internet - there is a button around here somewhere that will take you to LDS general conference memes.

I am going to sum up a podcast that I listened to about the psychology of religion. It can be found here.  Fair warning, its long. Two studies popped out to me that have stayed banging around in my brain. I will butcher them now. (I could re-listen and find said studies and read the abstracts) But 'ain't nobody got time for that'

Line experiment:

Graph at the front of the room with lines at varying heights. Line C is by far the tallest line. Without remarkable eye sight difficulties it would be difficult to not see that line C is the tallest. When alone in the room as near to 100% as you can get will say line C is the tallest. One subject in a room with 4 or 5 other people who they think are also other subjects (but they are actually moles - just researchers in street clothes). With the moles present the subject is last to be asked:

"Which line is the tallest"

Before them each of the other individuals will answer first and they will all say "Line A is tallest"

Line A

Line A

Line A

Line A

When this happens the rate at which the actual tallest line is identified drops to ... I don't remember now, in the 30ish%. Its just so hard after hearing four or five other people say Line A for you to say Line C. Even though you know line C is tallest.

Now when just ONE mole changes their answer:

Line A

Line C

Line A

Line A

The rates that the subject will say the correct line jump WAY back up.

Pretend you like it experiment:

"Say you like it till you do."

Subjects are brought in and asked to do a mind numbing pointless task, move these pegs from these holes to these holes, then back for THIRTY STRAIGHT MINUTES.  Till you want to poke your eyes out with the pegs. That mind numbing.

Participants are asked to rate their satisfaction with the task, as expected rates of satisfaction were not high.

Now same task, same amount of time, same mind numb. Except this time before rating their satisfaction they are ask to do a solid for the researcher. He has to go to the bathroom, can the subject head out to the waiting room and explain the importance of participating in this study. Just tell the person that its of value to the academic community blah, blah and that it was a rather enjoyable experience. They do head out and to the next participant SAY that they actually rather kind of enjoyed doing an absolutely mundane task for thirty minutes of their life.

THEN they are asked about rate of satisfaction with the task that they did. The group that gave the pitch had significantly higher rates of satisfaction. Just because they said they liked it, they ended up kind of liking it.

Now apply the commentary of these two social experiments to lets say a testimony meeting:

You might have "doubts" in your mind or as I have come to realize, logic and reason nagging at you. But you hear one after the other, Line A, Line A, Line A, Line A, from the oldest to the tiniest members coached with whispered breath say Line A Line A Line A.... and you begin push down in your mind the voice saying nuh-uh. Its C.

Then you are told to say it till you mean it, sell the pitch.

A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it. Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that 'leap of faith,' as the philosophers call it. - Richard Wirthlin

Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them. - Dallin Oaks

So month after month, Sunday after Sunday, meeting after meeting, You listen to the echo chamber of belief and if you still don't have your own, say it anyway. 

Line A

Line A

Line A

I know this church is true.

I know this church is true.

I know this church is true. 

I know this church is true.

if there is a god,

 he ain't mormon

I did not go looking to lose my faith. I was pretty happy where I was in my fog of faith when I tripped up on church history issues. In fact I was being a member missionary to Joni when I was appalled at some claims she made on her blog. I decided I'd fact check them myself, surely being raised in the church, being a seminary graduate and years of gospel doctrine I would have heard about this... that lead me to the wives of Joseph Smith, then Joseph's multiple accounts of the first vision, then the witnesses to the book of mormon saying they didn't see it with their real eyes but their "spiritual" eyes. Then further. 

But more telling to me was the response I got from those who I talked to about my "issues".  I noticed a trend. Start with the conclusion, make information fit to that conclusion, depend solely on the subjective, and when really hard pressed say "I don't know" or "you just got to have faith". 

Subjective:  Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external

God is not the god of confusion, God is unchanging...

Well all I could find in my research was a big steamy pile of confusion shrouded in changes. 

Take for instance women. We hear talk a lot in the church about how important prophets were then so they should be now, because why would God want a mouthpiece for his people then for revelation and not now? That wouldn't make any sense.

So then why do women now dismiss polygamy because "well I don't need to worry about it, its not asked of ME now." What? Are we better women now than them, do we deserve better than they did?

Or the reverse -- Why is there a prophetess in the Old Testament? But not today?

How come looking back we know easily when a prophet was just "speaking as a man" but we don't seem to realize that in the moment. 1978 was NOT that long ago. The year I was born a black active LDS family would not be admitted into a temple. 

IF we are the one true church with direct revelation from God... one of those sides of the equation is off. Either the church is not true. Or god is a racist jerkface.

OR Option 3. Its all man-made. Funny how whatever opinion the person/church holds they seem convinced its god's directive as well. 

How about the scriptures? You are a loving parent you communicate with your children and THAT is the end result? Lots of bloodshed, rape, incest, murder, slavery, polygamy...spattered with loving sentiments and contradictions. 

How about the ten commandments? If you knew you would die tomorrow and you could only leave 10 rules about life for your children would FOUR be about how they think/worship YOU? 

It was all a ball of crazy as soon as I allowed myself to NOT look at it subjectively but objectively. 

Objective: Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices

Then I started to notice that what I was hearing by those trying to help were rationalizations. 

Men rationalizing polygamy involving 14 year olds, women rationalizing their husbands being sealed to other women after they die. Many rationalizing not supporting gay marriage because it went against what "they believed". Many, many rationalizing building a mall while babies died from starvation. 

I don't know really what was the right choice but I stayed active for a long time when it was very hard. I kept going to church for months and months after I truly stopped believing. I was fighting to believe so I might not have even admitted "non-belief" to myself then. But it was there. 

I think that continuing to go has had its pros and cons, Pros in that I became truly solidified in my decisions. Kyle and I got on the same page gradually as inconsistencies became glaring. (That happens when you set aside the prejudice toward belief.) We could introduce questioning to the kids before we stopped going. 

The biggest con was that it started my hulk phase: 

I got angry. I could only see people I love unwilling to see what they are committed to. Finding out the truth about the church is like seeing your best friends husband with another woman. You tell her but she doesn't believe you. Her marriage is worth more than the truth to her. 

I want to shake every member by the shoulders and say. 

ITS NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS.

ITS JUST NOT.

Yes I know there is so much good... but there is good elsewhere!

Its like a cookie, a really really good cookie, but one chocolate chip is actually dog poop. 

Pascals Wager:

An argument in philosophy: It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or does not exist. Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God.  (from here)

In short Pascals wager is "what if you are wrong" 

I saw merit in that argument for a long time. If you are a faithful LDS member you will most likely lead a very good life. (that is if you are not gay, or feminist, or, I digress) So why not live as if the church is true and all will be ok either way. 

Rather than leave and it be true...

Well its like this you see,

You give up A LOT to be mormon. 

You are told what congregation to attend.
You don't request which calling you would like you are offered one 

Who to visit to teach and who will visit you.

Meetings and more meetings and meetings about meetings.

Told what to wear and what to eat and what to drink.

Admonished to have families be totally self reliant give 10% of your income, and then some more.
Spend your precious little time for date night at the temple as often as possible. 

Don't ask where that money goes. 

Spend 10,000 on a mission

Support your leaders no. matter. what.
Indexing!

But what if THIS is it. What if this beautifully wonderful fantastic but short life is IT.

Just think about that for a moment. A short life, now take away the time you must sleep. The time you must work. The time you must shower and eat. Take away your childhood and your very old age. What do you have left? 

Not tons of time. In that small slice of pie left do I want to spend it at mormon meetings hearing many of the same things over and over again, many inconsistencies and logical fallacies? Spend all that time talking about helping our fellow man but really just indexing? Indexing a lot. We like the dead, they don't ask as many questions about church history.

So Pascals wager doesn't work for me. 

IF there is a god.

IF that god is logical.

I will be judged for how I acted not what was in my head.

IF they are reasonable I can explain why I rejected what I rejected. Why I kept what I kept.

Even if I professed belief I would be lying.

If when I die, I go back to being elements for life on this earth to continue. If 3020 is the same to me as 1720 was, then I am going use every second of this life while I have it to live. I'll be honest with myself. Share my story. Help others. Enjoy my time, my body, my family. 

I have noticed myself moving through the Kubler-Ross stages of grief. Just a little out of order, I've done denial, then bargaining, then depression, Now its anger. But little by little acceptance is taking hold. 

I feel like airing the rest of my frustrations will move me solidly into peace. I am making new friends. We are filling our lives with new endeavors and activities. Its staggering to realize how embedded the church was in our lives. Freeing to know its gone. 

fin.

Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence - unknown

He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. - William Drummond

Don't cry for me ... In which I address a patronizing blog comment.

I was just thinking about you and decided to read what was happening on your end since I don't get to read your Facebook posts anymore, but I feel so sad for you Janie. You let others talk you out of what you once knew to be true. That is what Satan wanted all along and he sure did get you good. I hope that one day you will come back and feel the goodness and mercy of the Atonement of the Savior. He loves you. And He weeps for this choice you have made. But He also awaits with open arms. 

A peek into Mormon passive aggression. I just want to break down this comment since there may be other readers thinking the same thing. 

1. "I feel so sad for you Janie."

I have also had someone say to my face "You are so sad." to which I replied no in fact I am not and that is offensive... to which they came back with "No you are saaaaadddd" (Picture puppy dog face and condescension) 

To anyone who is concerned, I am genuinely not sad. There were dark times coming to the realization that what I believed and what I was taught, and what I was teaching my children was inaccurate. Being on the fence, living for a year+ as an active Mormon deciding how to proceed, fighting for answers. That was hard. Life now is sweet and full of freedom and active truth seeking. Even IF I was sad, or IF you feel sad for me that is generally a rude thing to haphazardly claim about some one's life especially through a blog comment. I'd reserve statements of that nature for your closest friends and family. 

2.   "You let others talk you out of what you once knew to be true."

OH MY STARS ABOVE. no. just no.  No one talked me out of anything, In fact there was NO one to really talk to about this. This has inspired me to fully address my deconversion story it is way too much to outline in one post. But this sentence alone shows me that the person is not really a blog reader of mine, did not follow my faith crisis posts or does not have the intellect to follow the reasoning that I had to go through. 

Or how about this? Talk me back into it. Who even talked me into the church in the first place? I was baptized when I still believed in Santa Claus. Think about that for a minute. I took the Gospel SERIOUSLY, I stumbled onto questionable church history WHILE I WAS BEING A GOOD MEMBER MISSIONARY. I took the entire process slowly from the first two emails to close friends to talks with the Bishops and scriptorians not a single issue I have struggled with has been met with satisfactory answers. So before you throw out something as simple as that someone talked me out of.... why don't you address the issues instead? 

3. "what Satan wanted all along and he sure did get you good. " 

Oh I forgot how shame ridden and fearful the gospel truly is... Satan is out to get you and don't stray from whatever correlated church materials there are or the scriptures because social isolationists and the Devil await. This is what my life looks like now:

I raise my children, I take care of my home (not well enough) Kyle and I are madly in love, we watch a little TV at night sometimes religious vs. atheism debates and yell at the logical fallacies like its football, if we get to bed after the kids but before we are exhausted we make love, I read too much and blab some on facebook, I breastfeed two babies several times a day, I am building new friendships, I teach and help moms have great births, I take my kids to the park, sometimes we swim, soon I will have four in school, we barely scrap by but still try to give a little to things like the Wounded Warriors Project and Midwifery charities. I might say more bad words than I like but I do try hard to help others. 

If I am the product of Satan's evil grasp then the world should not be too worried. I think most would be ok with me as a neighbor. 

Public Service Announcment - Satan does not exist - I already addressed that here. 

4. " I hope that one day you will come back and feel the goodness and mercy of the Atonement of the Savior "

I find the concept of the Atonement illogical. I addressed that here 

And there is no need for you to hope or worry, I prayed haaard, hard, hard when I was going through this and I made it clear to any deities anywhere what I would need for belief. I'll let you know if they get back to me. Answers would also be good ... but those aren't to be had. Just ask this guy. 

5. "He loves you."

And Santa Claus loves you. 

6. "And He weeps for this choice you have made."

And... we are back to shame. This is the 'I know what Jesus thinks', I have peered into his thoughts and he told me that you made him cry. 

So thank you for coming to my blog and letting me know I made Jesus cry. Since you can know his thoughts can you also let me know if it made him cry when his Prophet Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl, even though she didn't want to?


7. "But He also awaits with open arms."

Ok cool. Since ya'll are so tight and all, can you get him a message?

There are babies dying from malaria ...

right. 
now.

'preciate it. 

Equal is Equal.

I have this cheesy (read fantastic) idea, Kyle and I should do blog battles, some way some how blog the convos that we have back and forth. I may be partial, but I think our dinner discussions and chats that we somehow manage to have over the roar of six kids are pretty damn interesting. Kyle brings the brilliance and I bring the emotion. Last night's discussion that continued when he got a chance to call me at lunch morphed into him writing this blog post, without further ado... 

(PS. I said every good blog post needs a pic, he firmly requested a baby squirrel.) 

from here

A guest blog from Kyle:

I do not often post my thoughts publicly; preferring, instead, to share them in more personal conversations with those close to me. The recent rulings by the Supreme Court and the ensuing uproar have spurred me to depart from that behavior.

Up until maybe two years ago, I identified as Republican. Then I realized that the Republican Party as an organization no longer believed or practiced the ideals that I believe in: limited government, fiscal responsibility, personal accountability, adherence to the Constitution, and freedom of the people to name a few. Instead, Republican politicians proclaim these values to get elected and then abandon them once they are in office (massive expansion of govt, massive debt, out of control departments and programs, bills that are voted on without anyone even READING). To be fair, I think the same situation exists for the Democrats as well – espousing principles of helping the poor and needy, equality for all, fairness, etc… - then legislating nothing but more govt and power for themselves. I still tend to vote Republican but identify as Conservative or Libertarian.

So it has been with mounting disgust and embarrassment that I have read the comments on various news sites from ‘Republicans’ / ‘Conservatives’ regarding the gay marriage decisions. These comments run from ‘homosexuality is a sin’ to ‘gays will burn in hell’ to ‘why do they have to do that in public’ to ‘they just want to shove this down our throats’. The amount of hatred and vitriol is barely kept in check by many of these people and I have yet to see any of them approach the issue with a rational defense of their position based on the law, the Constitution, or anything other than their personal beliefs. I am embarrassed that these comments are coming from the same people who would identify as the same political philosophy I do.

Putting the vitriolic nature of these comments aside and looking at them based on their (lack of) merits:

The arguments based on the Bible (ie: it is a sin / abomination):

            - First of all, religion should not dictate laws. ‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…’ To my knowledge, this is the only mention of religion within the Constitution or its Amendments. Nowhere does it state that laws should be established based on the beliefs of a particular religion. Frankly, that would be really bad because…

            - Which religion should we base our laws on? Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Mormon, Lutheran, Presbyterian… What about Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist... This is exactly what the section of the Constitution above is designed to prevent – any religion, no matter how prevalent in the current society, from becoming the law of the land.

            - Which Bible? The wiki on Bible editions shows 96 different versions classified as ‘complete translations’. 96!!! I knew there were a lot but seriously? How can any person definitively state their version is the absolute undeniable word of God when there are so many different variations? And to not only say that your version is correct but to then use that to condemn a person based on it? I am sorry but that is not what I think Jesus would do. I was going to break down the few (3) actual scriptures I have seen quoted but that seems irrelevant at this point. Judge not lest ye be judged.

As for the arguments based on society/culture (for lack of a better classification) (ie: ‘Why do they have to be in public like that?’ and ‘Eww, can you believe they actually expect us to be okay with them calling it marriage’). While it was slightly before my time, these arguments sound remarkably similar to those made by the ‘moral authority’ during a different issue. Let’s change them just slightly and see what we think: ‘Why do they have to be in the same public places as us?’ and ‘Eww, can you believe they actually expect us to be okay with them eating in the same restaurants as us?’ Too much? Maybe, but society wouldn’t condone those statements today so why do we condone similar ones just because it is a different classification of people? Equal is Equal.

Before seeing these comments and, frankly, before actually writing my own thoughts down, I never would have called myself a ‘supporter of gay rights’. But I can find absolutely no justification in the opposite argument and the attempts by those in that camp to justify their position only make their position weaker. For those of you that know me and my recent departure from faith, you may be thinking my opinions are based on that change. You would be wrong. Even when I was a self-proclaimed Christian (LDS), I had trouble supporting the opposition to gay marriage. Basically, I asked myself this question: ‘How does the marriage of two men or two women cheapen or in any way negatively affect my own marriage?’ The only honest answer I had was ‘It does not’. So how could I possibly stand for denying the same recognition of love that I have enjoyed for many years with my wife from any of my fellow human beings?

(p.s. I do have a major issue with the WAY in which the court handled Prop8 but that could be an entire book on its own)

- Kyle.

Satan, the most confusing part of the plan.

?

There are a few premises to the idea of the adversary that have made me scratch my head....

IF the reason we are here is to receive a body AND...

Be tested. Then there needs to be equilibrium in the force - a side or nature we are fighting against. In the plan of salvation when Lucifer's plan of forced communistic behavior is rejected the war ensues and his followers are cast out and they tempt us to this day. They want our bodies and want to win more souls away from God.

This is the battle between good and evil that we are here to be tested within...


SO if Satan wants to destroy God's plan. And he puts the balance in the testing arena... The BEST thing he could do would be to .....


LEAVE.


Don't show up. Go over to a universe far, far away and take a nap for a LOT of years.  THAT would actually mess God up.

But Satan is motivated enough to play along and be in the minds of 7 billion people ALL the time. (with the help of his motivated minions.  Day in and Day out even at night... tempting us. Hard working fellow.

Then as I heard one teenager put it at the UU meeting one day. If Satan will punish all the bad guys? How does that not make him a good guy?

And, call me callous but I don't even understand the need for a sacrifice. Why exactly could God not just forgive??

What I see now are the merits of comfort when you externalize your own nature.

Praise God for the good and blame Satan for the bad.

Nooooo you didn't just have the urge to punch that person in the face, It was Satan tempting you.

It also answers the awful awful emotions we have when people do TERRIBLE things, like torture babies. We don't want to think that is something a human brain could be capable of, even a damaged one. We find solace in the eternal damnation of the worst of humankind. And reward for the good of others.

These thoughts were in my head when this week, the "historic" broadcast let us know that the LDS church will be equipping missionaries with ipads (some of them) and having some of them spend more time in meetinghouses on the internet sharing the message instead of bothering people door to door. I suspect it is getting difficult to find things for these missionaries to do.

big sigh...

Know what I see now? 70,000 young people who could ROCK THIS WORLD in major humanitarian efforts. Build more wells, deliver more mosquito nets, call up habitat for humanity and say "want about 5000 hard workers full time?" Ask my sister who works at a homeless shelter what could be done with the money about to be spent on ipads.
Call orphanages or schools in impoverished areas and say we will be there tuesday with paint cans and pencils and paper. Start funneling food to the starving right. now. instead of storing it for ourselves?

 Worldwide, there are 50 million deaths annually, and 5 million (10%) of those death are due to childhood malnutrition. And while only 10% of malnourished child die; the remaining 90% suffer lifelong cognitive and physical defects that significantly and severely reduce their earning potential as adults, leading to a cycle in which their reduced future earnings lead to their own children being malnourished as well. We estimate 80,000 active LDS children suffer from chronic malnutrition, and about 900 die from malnutrition every year. A similar number of active LDS children are unable to attend elementary school secondary to lack of funding. from here


We are so caught up in peoples eternal salvation we completely overlook their current suffering.
IF there is a Satan, (no I don't think there is) he is probably beyond happy to see prophets, seers and revelators justify a mall with church funds and see young men and women spend more time inside on the internet. IS religion the haze letting us abandon others?


In defense of the church, I think this is great: http://www.justserve.org/

A more eloquent synopsis here. 

** And no, I don't expect perfection from every organization, we could (and should) all do more, but I don't see many other organizations proclaiming to be the ONE, the TRUE church, with direct revelation through a modern prophet.

by their fruits?