Sometimes people send me sermons.

My response to a sermon a friend asked me to listen to - it can be found here

Sermon from 5/18/14 at Chase Oaks Church.

I sent my notes to the preacher, Jeff Jones, his personal assistant said he would be responding shortly but he never did.

My friend said my notes made her think, I asked her about talking to her preacher about a few things out of curiosity. She said although she had been attending there for five years she had never actually met or talked to the guy. Interesting.

I don't think you need to listen to the sermon necessarily to read the notes but you can if you would like to:

This will be sort of stream of consciousness from notes I took as I listened to the sermon, "Boycott the boycotts". I might use the language of speaking for all non-believers when I don't, just like I know the preacher does not speak for all Christians.

Starts with comparing the church's outlook to DNA. Its interesting to me that religion tries more and more to relate to science. One can respect science and be religious, but any effort to make religion seem scientific when it has no regard for evidence makes me suspect.

"We all have tricky relationships'…. Yes part of the human condition J

Breakdown of Christianity vs. culture…

This is where it kind of lost me logically. It’s a false dichotomy, an "us vs. them",  in-group/out-group thing that is frustrating about religion to begin with.

And it avoids the issue that within the faith that dichotomy exists on its own. Culture is ALL of us in the community, Christians contribute both good and bad to the culture as much if not more so than non-Christians. Especially given the fact that Christians whether they feel marginalized or not, ARE the majority.

"the people of this culture think differently from the bible"

GOOD.  One does need to ask the difficult question: is the bible even worth following? It espouses genocide, infanticide, rape, murder and slavery. The atonement of Jesus bypasses the question of could a loving parent deity not just forgive? why not? Why demand a blood sacrifice? Many non theists today are not unfamiliar with the bible. They don't abandon it to sin, they looked at it, examined it closely and reject it due to its own lack of merit. Christians don't need to bear a burden of exposing us to the bible. The claims of Christianity are already accessible.

Scientifically, markers of well-being improve the less religious a society is.

Then there were questions raised in the sermon about the Christian influence and does it cause the desired influence or more backlash. Then the scriptures were gone to specifically in Corinthians. Detailed description of Corinth and comparisons to Vegas, etc. Which I had many head scratching moments of wondering where the evidence for all these claims were. Do we have any historical evidence for this information of Corinth outside of the bible itself?.. but laying the lack of back up details to the back burner …
- lets move on to the topic. I'll paraphrase but the general idea I got was that this chapter sets up the premise that it is ok to judge and rebuke fellow Christ followers for their sins but the church does not have that jurisdiction outside of the church.

Then the sermon took a dark turn for me in the details of how to rebuke fellow church goers "get in their way"  "get them off the path" (on the path to sin) We may reject you from the fellowship because that IS biblical.. because we love you and don't want you on that path. It felt like a kind way of thought policing the congregation, sic them on each other. I’m sorry but that would keep me out of a congregation even IF I had belief.

Then my notes go on… I jotted down 'individual is king', 'Christ followers are family of god' - 'different standard', my memory is fuzzy but I took some umbrage at this false dichotomy as well.

Of all the "family" references I think it overlooked that many people that consider themselves humanists do look at the entire global community as family. The human family, all with shared trials and issues. In fact many humanists like myself are absolutely appalled at all the social injustices that continues everywhere. The overhead at churches alone could feed so many starving children, help end child pornography, etc. Now I don't want to create my own illogical comparison. Churches do offer community support and help with social causes and freethinking groups have overhead as well. It just seemed to me there were a lot of made up problems in this sermon that aren't even on the docket of the worlds most pressing problems. First world Christian problems if I may borrow a popular phrase.

Then from this point it was, if I could so crassly sum up: Be nice to the world because people are starting to think we are jerks. Its not our job to picket… side story about gay week at Disney, which I think if I had been a gay member of the congregation would have made me very uncomfortable, While there was no degrading of gay people there was an air of "they are the out-group" to that example. And it was noble of Disney to treat them as guests. Which, while that is absolutely true. We need to move on from that even being a conversation. Gay people are just people. Plain and simple, they don’t need anyone's ire or noble "I'm pointing out that we aren't pointing you out because we want to be good Christians"

Then admonitions to engage culture vs. fighting the culture. Increase your opportunities to have influence. Life is better when you follow what god has approved (ignoring for a moment that even across Christianity that can't be agreed on), Infiltrate and influence.. live so that people want to know where your peace comes from so they ask what your reason for hope is.

This is where I have a few things to say about that:

1. Christians already have vast influence in culture, schools, politics, and the market.

2. You put a lot of pressure on your congregants to exude happiness at all times, they have been challenged to represent Christianity with their glowing stories so that others will see their reasons for hope. There were people listening with very real problems and probably some with depression or other mental illnesses. They don't need the pressure of being the poster child for Christianity.

3. There is also the connotation that non-believers, atheists like myself don't have hope. We can, and do live lives of happiness, our countenance can also be inspiring to others and people can be influenced with our happiness and love even when our basis for that is not rooted in Christianity (or any faith) for that matter.

4. Many Christians speak openly about their faith ad nauseam. It might not be adding to the goal Christians have. Many of the people that are leaving religion (that number is rapidly growing)  are asking very deep, very probing questions. Trite pronouncements of faith and hope and love is not moving the conversation forward.

SO in short, I am very pleased with the concept of showing love more than judgment. Those nuggets I was impressed with but overall I think there was a lack of understanding for the group in which you labeled 'culture' and excluded yourself from being a part of.

It might come as a surprise but to some degree Christians like Westboro Baptists are considered (while completely vile) more intellectually honest. They unabashedly take the Bible at its face value, Christians that move the goalposts, claim truth but speak in vagueness confuse me more.  Address us all as the humans that we are, address your religion with better evidence and that will gain more influence for those not engaging with Christianity anymore.

let me know where I was off base.

Mr Jones talking to the insiders, here. 

Questions atheists can't truly answer... Ok I'll bite.

Some Questions Atheist Cannot Truly and Honestly REALLY Answer! Which leads to some interesting conclusions…

from here

1.       How Did You Become an Atheist?

 In the very unsettling process of leaving the religion I was raised in and the subsequent sadness I set out to learn logical fallacies, biases and the method to determining truth not based on feelings. It lead me to skepticism and I applied it to all religions the same way I did to my own.

2.       What happens when we die?

I can hope that a lot of things happen but the only credible evidence there is, is that the matter that is "us" becomes some other part of nature.  

3.       What if you’re wrong? And there is a Heaven? And there is a HELL!

I would hope "they" or him or her would judge me based on my actions and not my beliefs. Infinite reward or punishment for finite actions is illogical. If that is how the afterlife works it is not worth my mental energy and I will do what I do anyway and enjoy the time I have.

 “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
― Anonymous

4.       Without God, where do you get your morality from?

 The same place you do. Most religious folks I know do not consult their sacred text for every moral decision. Morality to me is a combination of treating others the way I want to be treated. Avoiding harm to others and myself and animals and nature. And asking myself if what I do is something EVERYONE else did, would this world be better or worse off?

5.       If there is no God, can we do what we want? Are we free to murder and rape? While good deeds are unrewarded?

Even if there is a god you can do what you want. Believers and non believers murder and rape. Fair secular justice is all we can aim for. Christian believers think those people are worthy of forgiveness solely for believing in Jesus.

 6.       If there is no god, how does your life have any meaning?

 It has meaning because I give it meaning. I feel meaning and love and accomplishment and enjoy the experiences therein.

7.       Where did the universe come from?

 We don't know. But believing god only moves that back one square. Where does god come from?
We learn more about the Big Bang and the Cosmos everyday. I am open to learning more about all of that. Religion? not so much.

8.       What about miracles? What all the people who claim to have a connection with Jesus? What about those who claim to have seen saints or angels?

Bias, delusion, groupthink, confusion, motivated reasoning, false memories, etc. This does not further the religious person's cause because for every person who has had a personal experience justifying their belief there is probably someone else who also had an experience that directly contradicts that. Mormonism (modern prophet) Islam (no prophets after Mohammad) Can not both be true. But both sides have miracles as their claim.

"Miracles are culturally accepted false beliefs."

9.       What’s your view of Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris?

Not relevant to the issue.

Dawkins is an expert on evolutionary biology. I learned a lot from the "Selfish Gene"

Hitchens - profound speaker especially in debate format.

Harris- fascinating information from his perspective on neurology. His book "Free Will" made me a more compassionate person.

10.   If there is no God, then why does every society have a religion?

We have evolved to patternistic thinking. We look for patterns even when they don't exist, our existential fears are comforted by the notion of a god so we look for notions of a deity to self soothe. Culturally we have also done this to solidify the group. It is pervasive and we indoctrinate our children to it before they even question. Its hard to go against that, so many don't even try, even though I would hazard to guess most harbor doubts.

My Book of Mormon

Still an admitted podcast addict here, the line up changes over time and I move with the topics that interest me. I have slowly moved away from Mormon podcasts. Except when this one came across my field of view the idea made me laugh. An non-believer completely unfamiliar with the LDS church is reading the Book of Mormon, cover to cover stopping to add his impressions along the way.

So many cling to it (I did) giving it merit that if read with any degree of critical thinking is not really merited. At its core the Book of Mormon is racist. Native Americans are dark because of a curse.

Ancient Isrealites came across the ocean and had epic battles of thousands to millions of  people with steel swords. Oh and horses, and elephants.... I don't know that it can be held up at all without severe cherry picking.

With some twitter exchanges with David and a few emails later, I was interviewed.

I think I deserve a cookie for condensing my 'story' into under 2 minutes.

My Book of Mormon Podcast, Episode 16 

Where in the world is Janie...

Oh blogging.... I can't give you up but I often let you down. My mom's story sits there looking at me. I wait for her next installment. She is quite a writer isn't she? I've had to assure people in my life that no she is not making it up. Those are real people, they are/were characters but very very real. I love how her words have brought the stories back to the surface and brought them to life. This past Sunday watching Cosmos -- The part where the ode to the written word of humans is highlighted I thought of my mom's story and was immensely grateful to her for putting it down for me and future family members to read.

So this is my "one year post" Yes its about religion so for those who are sensitive to that topic you can tune out now.

I can't believe I don't have a specific date for the 'last Sunday' we attended church. It was such a long time coming that when we actually stopped it was a non-event in a way. I have a few snapshots in my mind. Like the phone call about a ride to scouts. And me saying "We won't be doing that anymore."

Like for this week/month?

"No like ... ever."

A few last things related to callings dropped off and a few final emails. And then that was about it. The living room and bishop's office sit-downs had already occurred.

In honor of this post, I even looked up my very first email to friends from the nebulous beginning of my questioning:

So I am having a crisis of faith apparently and I think Kyle doesn't know what to say to me anymore - so I have been praying about it and I keep thinking I need to talk about it. Because 1) you are smarter and more learned in the scriptures than I am and 2) I don't think my mumblings would negatively affect your faith.

I've tried to kind of quell my own mumblings but my thoughts get circular on the subject and its frustrating. Then I thought I'd bring it up one day in person - but that may be awkward.  So anyway - its so cliche too - A LDS woman struggling with the topic of polygamy - but I am struggling whether it is cliche or not.

Specifically about Joseph Smith.

And it all really boils down to the fact that my whole life I did not know he had what? 30 wives - to this day I still don't know details - and its very precarious to try to research it online - you know what kind of stuff is online - which I have avoided. 

but through what I feel were honest sources (not anti) I did find more. And it was unsettling. Mainly this point - that he hid the marriage ( to a girl who was only 17) from Emma and quote :

Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage.  He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...”

those words keep echoing in my mind, 

So I tried to let it go and turn to the scriptures only and choked spiritually on section 132 like I have before.

I feel like I could overcome the topic if it didn't seem hidden by the church. How many members today if asked would only know Emma asJoseph's wife - do these other women not deserve recognition - they bore him children... If it was my daughter I would not want her swept under the rug.

I feel like I can't move away from this and when "Joseph Smith" is said in church I ache. I mean if a man did that in the ward right now he'd be ostracized.

on a similar vein - Men being able to be sealed after the death of their wife and women not being able to. I can't. get. over. it.

anyway. I am going to pray more and fast.

I am sorry - feel free to think I am crazy and tell me to take it up with the bishop. 

 Almost like the pain of childbirth, I can't really remember the pain I felt then. I know it was real and deep and agonizing. But I have none of that anymore.
In fact I've come very close to not writing this "anniversary" post at all. But I'm going to do it anyway... what's that they say about an unexamined life...

Questioning in earnest Jan of 2011, Open disaffection August 2012, Left sometime February 2013, Resignation (Names removed) June 2013

So where am I now? where are we as a family?

Me:

To answer the oft asked question... so what do you believe now? I took that question seriously when posed to me and I started really diving into what it was that excited me. I have found such a renewed interest in science, specifically scientific skepticism. Found the old copy of Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Dove headfirst into some great science podcasts and discovered to my delight there is a vast network of modern skeptics that work to promote the beauty of science and the benefit of critical thinking.

In the social adrift state after leaving the church my natural inclination was to turn to the many crunchy mom groups and natural birth community groups. I have found dear friends in those circles.

Sadly though, I noticed the trend emerge that many things were still dogma based. A set of "rules" that were incontrovertibly true to many in these circles. Science denial often trumps when certain topics come up (vaccines, homeopathy, diet extremism, etc.) I felt I had in a sense jumped from the frying pan into the fire.

One night at dinner with a very cool friend who felt somewhat abandoned by a birth network she was a part of for political reasons she said "I thought one day instead of making myself fit in a place, I'll make my own damn place."

Brilliance!  I was a person with a foot in two worlds. A new found skeptic thirsting for science but still the babywearing extended breastfeeder who had two babies born out of the hospital. So I worked to find my own place to fit. And I started the Crunchy Skeptics group on facebook. It has helped me come in contact with some absolutely marvelous people. I've made wonderful new friends and have some fantastic people as admins. Several scientists, doctors, nurses, journalists, midwives, birth professionals, and more offer support and advice in the group. We chew articles up and debate the real data. We know logical fallacies and point them out readily. I have found the convos there to be unparalleled to most online groups. I know its *just* facebook but its really been a fantastic way for me to focus my time and effort doing what I love: chatting.

Us as a family:

We are now attending Fellowship of Freethought (meets once a month). Always interesting topics and the kids learn some great things about science or the natural world in their classes.
We are hoping to send the oldest three to Camp Quest this summer and Kyle and I will be volunteers.
We are all super excited to be watching the remake of the Cosmos series. This fuels my Neil deGrasse Tyson fangirling which makes everyone only roll their eyes a little bit more at me.
We are going camping with new friends again this weekend.
Wow... Sundays actually spent relaxing. FOR. THE. WIN.


Over the past couple of years I have felt some of the most difficult pain ever. Only rivaled by the pain of losing my father and brother, and it even encompassed that pain as well. I am so glad to be on the other side of it. I think of people like my husband, my mother, my sister, my mother in law, my older children, a few friends who have just listened to me over and over and over again through all of this. For new friends that I never would have met if not for my path of great change. I am a better person for having such open minded people in my life.

I have also lost many friends. And I am close to the point of forgiveness now. At first I felt rejected, then I rejected the relationships myself. It just is what it is. Its almost like a color. I like the color of those friendships very much, I just don't know quite how to incorporate them into the decor of my life now. I hope some day I/we will figure that out.

I was asked the other day if you could go back and not know what you know about the church would you?

At first I would have said yes.

Now? not only no. but hell no.

My life is richer for all the things I've learned.

PS. In other news, Kyle's hair has gotten a lot longer and his vas deferens shorter ;) 

Faith I would like to introduce you to Epistemology

I want to take something back.

I characterized my transition out of the church as a "faith crisis" and quite frankly I don't want to call it that anymore. It wasn't a crisis. It was difficult and emotional and generally a suck fest, but crisis? nah. And that term 'faith crisis' implies in some sense that I had created the problem.

A while back I ran into someone, a mormon friend, and since our time was brief I didn't want to bring it up, but it came up anyway. "How is the ward?"

good, as far as I know. (non committal answer)

"How is the family?"

great.

"So what is your calling these days?"

ummm. Actually we left the church in February.

"WHAT? silence.....
that doesn't sound like you."

On the drive home that phrase bounced around in my head like a ping pong ball. "doesn't sound like you"  it irritated me. It had nothing to do with me really. I dug into church history to solidify my faith, not lose it. What I found was NOT of my doing. History was history, I could not change it and I could not put it on the crumbling shelf anymore. How was I, almost 200 years later, dealing with the fallout of some other man's lies?
In the moment of our conversation. I gave my elevator pitch of my main reasons for leaving. She said what I had heard before:

"I know Joseph saw what he saw and did what he did."

And there it was, the "I know" I kept the conversation polite and kind but I thought:
NO YOU DON'T KNOW. You don't know. You just don't know. You just don't. I don't and YOU don't.

You have faith, but I no longer see the value in faith. Faith is lack of evidence. Or in the case of mormonism belief not only with lack of evidence but against a mountain of conflicting evidence. Faith is pretending to know something that you just don't know. Faith brings you here rather quickly:

cre·du·li·ty

krəˈd(y)o͞olitē/

noun

1. 1.

   a tendency to be too ready to believe that something is real or true.

When you really think about it, it's the things we have little evidence for that we keep fighting to believe. We are warned over and over again that our testimonies need "strengthening". What else in life once we have solid evidence for, do we need to keep strengthening our belief in?

Studying epistemology, thinking about thinking has really changed my entire world view. When religious, there were vast areas of science and ideas that I was just not participating in. I have this new world open to me and it doesn't deal in a realm where I have to suspend my logic. There were so so so many things that just never made sense to me.

I am still in the stage of processing. I am abandoning my native tongue. I can't just get up off my knees brush off the dirt and keep walking without deconstructing what I had worked so hard for - but now there is a whistle while I work.

When people share their stories now I'm not so much interested in what they know as much as how they know.

“There exists in society a very special class of persons that I have always referred to as the Believers. These are folks who have chosen to accept a certain religion, philosophy, theory, idea or notion and cling to that belief regardless of any evidence that might, for anyone else, bring it into doubt. They are the ones who encourage and support the fanatics and the frauds of any given age. No amount of evidence, no matter how strong, will bring them any enlightenment. - James Randi

Map out your questioning.

I have new advice. Over time, since I have been open about my disaffection, some have in confidence shared that they are also doubting the church's claims. They wonder what resources might help. I generally share the sources that I found to be credible or at least not intensely slanted in either direction for or against the church.

Now that its not quite so emotional, I have started to think back over the map of my own apostasy and I wish I could do it over again. So here goes for time machine advice to myself:

First, Deeply consider one question:

IF there is evidence that the church is not what it claims to be, do you want to know?

For me the answer is yes because the truth is that important to me that I have a grasp on it even if it does not meld with what I want to be true. But if you can not say the same, do not go any further. When you stumble on info like Joseph Smith sent men on missions and married their wives while they were away. Or that he had sex with other women then when found out, claimed divine intervention, or that there are multiple versions of the first vision. IF those do not sit well in your mind, or you are capable of doubting the sources. Then by all means do that. Do exactly what Uctdorf says and doubt the doubts.

If like me, you must know, you want information from as many direct sources as possible and trained historians. Then here is the advice from my perspective:


1. Stop and breathe, decide in your mind that no matter what, you will take the process slowly. Read and investigate voraciously but continue to live as you are, no brash decision to stop going to church or activities. I think it actually helped my leaving that I went to church every Sunday during my disaffection and research.

2. Value objectivism over emotion. Religion is emotional and deals with our deepest existential fears. Table those emotions as best you can.

3. DO NOT CONTINUE ON WITH LDS MATERIAL at this point. Stop and start somewhere else:
-Get a very firm grip on logical fallacies and how to formulate an argument without flaws.
-Investigate the basic debates on deities.
-Decide your personal parameters for investigating truth.

4. Go back to the scriptures with the expectation that the creator of all the universe be somewhat logical. This site has scriptures organized by topic to aid your reading. Consider how you would communicate with your children and compare the information in the scriptures, including slavery and racism. In other words go read your scriptures but let critical thinking trump your feelings.

5. When you have a working knowledge of logical fallacies and investigating claims rationally return to investigating general claims of Mormonism but not church history yet. I'd start with rationalizing the plan of salvation: Pre-existence

6. Read books by non-believers and how they arrived there.
Losing my Religion by Lobdell
Deconverted by Seth Andrews
Why People Believe Weird Things by Shermer

7. Get into science.
StarTalk Radio
Big Think
The most astounding fact
Storytelling of Science
Radiolab

8. Now you are ready to Dig into church history.

9. Make your list of reasons to stay and reasons to leave, defend both positions logically to yourself.

10. Share with loved ones slowly and carefully as you feel ready. Preface conversations with the hope that the conversation can remain objective. "We discuss without tearful testimony sharing"


I went through my journey backwards, I was full of emotion and anger and had no clue about logical arguments so while I flopped like a dying fish - unable to recapture belief but fearful of the supernatural everything in my life was scary. I waited for signs that would never come. Every flat tire or tight paycheck was a sign of doom that I was a bad person just for questioning. A pregnancy laden with fear because surely I would be punished or have "blessings withheld".

Paradigm shifts are extremely difficult, they can only be handled rationally or you will be tugged at from every single direction with your free will abused with emotion, personal history, relationships, love and want.

Reason, Observation and Experience — the Holy Trinity of Science — have taught us that happiness is the only good; that the time to be happy is now, and the way to be happy is to make others so. This is enough for us. In this belief we are content to live and die. If by any possibility the existence of a power superior to, and independent of, nature shall be demonstrated, there will then be time enough to kneel. Until then, let us stand erect. - Robert Ingersoll

Scriptures... Bring it.

I did what I had been admonished to do I turned to the scriptures and really focused, doing my best to remain objective. Here are a few things that were insurmountable.

My first BIG problem, polygamy, lets liken the scriptures unto ourselves:

Doctrine and Covenants 132
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law. 

So Emma needs to agree to the polygamous arrangements of her husband or she will.... DIE.
Wha? WHAT??
That's harsh.
Who will kill her?
THE LORD THY GOD... WILL DESTROY HER.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

If the first give consent? Of course she will give consent! Because if you haven't forgotten from an earlier verse if she does not give consent what will happen?

SHE WILL DIE.
Wha? WHAT??
That's harsh.
Who will kill her?
THE LORD THY GOD... WILL DESTROY HER.

Oh yeah facepalm.... totally give consent (two thumbs way up Emma, I'd pick door number one for consenting to sharing with the other nice ladies!)
But how many women might I be sharing my man with, Emma might ask?


 62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

TEN Emma, the answer is TEN. Or 33... who is counting?


Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi
23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.

Just to sum that up, very briefly: If you dwindle in unbelief you will turn dark. (Is black the word they are looking for?) and not just dark, but also filthy and also loathsome.
Because that is both totally scientific and not at all racist. Wonder if my new crush would appreciate this scripture?

Now if you are strong and procreative in context of faithfulness? You turn fair, previously the text said "white and delightsome" ... This was part of the many, many changes made over the years to the Book of Mormon. For the 'most correct' book on earth its needed a little tweaking.

4 Nephi 1
10 And now, behold, it came to pass that the people of Nephi did wax strong, and did multiply exceedingly fast, and became an exceedingly fair and delightsome people.

Is this right:

2 Nephi 29
 6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

No research on this one yet but.... When Lehi's families got the plates AND before Christ had come AND therefore before there was ANY New Testament... Were they calling it 'the Bible'? Or did Joseph sneak that in to account for extreme skepticism of his work?

What in holy hell are we teaching our daughters?

Moroni 9
9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—

So in regard to daughters being taken PRISONERS and RAPED.  They have lost THEIR chastity.

slow blink

blink...

blink...

THEY LOST CHASTITY and VIRTUE

because they were taken prisoner and raped?

CUE MOMMA BEAR scream!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and I haven't even gotten to, that in the first place, a woman's chastity and virtue is the most precious and dear thing about her ABOVE ALL ELSE?

Dear daughters, your sexuality is amazing. It is not the most important thing about you. It is not, nor ever will be. And if by horrific chance you are raped. You have done nothing wrong yourself. You have been wronged and are in need of nothing but justice.

PS. This scripture is referenced in Personal Progress.... and that is not ok.

Want more? Go here or here.


If I gave you a Book of Mormon. I am sorry, I wasn't really aware, like I thought I was.

"You are more moral than the God that they forced you to believe, that they conned you into accepting" - Matt Dillahunty

A better alternative for morality

I was really angry when I first dived into some of the atheist thinkers, they were just so offensive. Then I had to really examine how come I was offended by their denial of scripture, but not offended by the ill treatment of women IN the scriptures. 

Hello confirmation bias, My name is Janie.

eyes.

opened. 

PS. I'm not done. There is more, including the Old and New Testament. 

If you could just be mad with me too...

When I started reaching out here and there to people to talk about my 'faith' issues. I noticed a trend. No one would be mad with me. There was this invisible wall, a pedestal, so to say, where "The Church" got put up and they could only try to help me via spin if it didn't make the church look bad.

I didn't really want answers ALL the time. I got to the point where I knew those weren't really possible. I just wanted someone else to be mad too. I needed to know that it wasn't all an ivory tower.

Be mad with me! This is infuriating. I could stay if maybe we weren't stepford wiving this pretending all is great, when it is not. There is value here but we have tarnished it.

When I would say... babies right now are dying from 100% curable diseases and malnutrition. Babies will be born to malnourished mothers, live only knowing hunger and die in childhood only ever having known pain. That will happen now in 2013! And Gods one true church in the 'fullness of times' built a billion dollar mall. That should piss off logical people. I think it would piss off Jesus, When I try to picture myself believing in a savior again he's tearing up shit at City Creek mall angry as hell.

But no one was mad. They talked about asset protection, portfolios, future endeavors of the church, investing, using the profit for more good... It was like I had gone crazy, or I was the last sane one in the room.

"I've been to City Creek. Its nice"

nuclear facepalm.

Thing is, I don't care what businesses do. I care what churches do. We gave tithing to do GOOD. To build houses of the Lord and what not and for humanitarian aid. Every relief fund I had nothing left for I didn't feel so bad. I was giving to an organization who knew how 'to do what is right and let the consequence follow."

When I found out about Joseph Smith having 33 wives. I was flaber.gasted! This can't be, surely people who have never been in the waters of baptism or sat through four years of early morning seminary can't know more about Joseph Smith than me...

Nope oh wait a second. They totally do.

But no one from a blindly faithful perspective could be mad with me. Even when I asked parents to their face "would you be ok with your fourteen year old marrying the prophet even if she didn't want to?"

Except for one exception I can think of - I got either blank stares, redirection or a reluctant yes.

Two roads diverged in a wood.... And I'm taking whichever one you are not taking.

I began to see 'faith' for what it really was: the ability to abandon reason and even good moral sense to preserve what you want to believe.

No one if they weren't conditioned to think otherwise could read a report (names removed) of what Joseph Smith did and be ok with it.

Would the body of the church have voted to build a mall?

Or how about the scriptures? Rape, incest, genocide, slavery. Most bad things in the bible were done by God.

Then there is my new frustration. Sandy Hook happened because we took "God out of school"

oh my stars above.

God is so vindictive that if he doesn't get praise all the time in all locations he totally stays his hand in the face of unadulterated violence?  If I did what god did, I knew a man was walking toward a school with guns and ammo and intent to kill and did NOTHING. What would society think of me? I think those would be criminal charges am I right?

God's way is - "I know that child will be raped. I will wait until that is over then one day, one day I will punish that perpetrator."

That is how it goes. God can never ever ever ever lose with the faithful. Good things were because of god. Bad things were because:

God is not bad, people are.
He is protecting free will.
He can't show himself that would destroy faith.
It was a trial for you.
Unanswered prayers are blessings too.
His ways are not our ways
He works in mysterious ways

So we look for the tender mercies and table all the times we are ignored. We pray for cell destruction and re-growth for the ones we love with cancer. But we know better than to pray for the amputee to re-grow a limb. We know that doesn't happen. I mean, we aren't silly.

Things came to a head one day for me. You can mess with me god but don't mess with my kids. One of mine was feeling particularly vulnerable and rejected. I won't share much of the details beyond that but to aid this situation we needed a little intervention. I prayed.

I prayed hard, hard, hard.

We need to get out of this, their tender feelings are on the line lord. Anything. Let the power go out in the building. Anything we just need to go and save face simultaneously.

Nothing happened.

The disappointment was faced and we left when we were supposed to, both of us silently cried the way home.

I got past it that night when I realized. I was only talking to myself.

And it was totally liberating. Sad yes. But there was immense peace to realizing I wasn't being ignored. I was not unworthy. There were no more mental gymnastics to do trying to understand why it was a "miracle" that an acquaintance found her nordstroms gift card but god's will that babies are starving and being shot.

This life was mine. No one was judging me from the sky or Kolob. I had one life to live and I wasn't wasting it anymore begging for help that may not come.

"for with god all things are possible" except - well, world hunger and jamming the guns of school shooters.

What if you built your own religion?

Listening to a podcast one day the caller questioned whether or not humanism could properly address racism and its negative effects. Matt Dillahunty explained a concept that I had never been exposed to before and I can't stop thinking about it:

To address equality ...Think of any system (a company, a family, a school, a religion, government, city, state, country, world) And 'build' it not knowing what part of it you will be.

So if you were to build a company, you would imagine and design every facet and position within not knowing if when the business is set to go what part in it you will be. You will pull out of a hat your position - it could be CEO or it could be janitor. If the world really operated liked that could it be a lot better?

It has also been a strong confirmation to me that the church is not true.

If a man sat a drawing board with the instruction to build a religion but wouldn't know if he'd wake up a female in that faith... I don't think most religions would look the way that they do.

In Mormonism would men be comfortable making their covenants through their spouse?
Or spending more on the young men's youth programs than the young women's?
Or having only men sitting up on the stand?
Would the hierarchy of the church be all male?
Priesthood limited to men?
Would polygamy and polyandry have taken place?
Would the LGBT community be so poorly treated?

I also read that if all that is known about religion and science were to disappear tomorrow, science would eventually get back to where it is now, religion could return but it would be different.


Here is the segment that has been brain food to chew on.


I have spent a lot of time reading, watching religion debates and being absolutely inspired by Neil deGrasse Tyson, its fascinating what you can learn when you step out of your worldview and open up to new concepts