Questions atheists can't truly answer... Ok I'll bite.

Some Questions Atheist Cannot Truly and Honestly REALLY Answer! Which leads to some interesting conclusions…

from here

1.       How Did You Become an Atheist?

 In the very unsettling process of leaving the religion I was raised in and the subsequent sadness I set out to learn logical fallacies, biases and the method to determining truth not based on feelings. It lead me to skepticism and I applied it to all religions the same way I did to my own.

2.       What happens when we die?

I can hope that a lot of things happen but the only credible evidence there is, is that the matter that is "us" becomes some other part of nature.  

3.       What if you’re wrong? And there is a Heaven? And there is a HELL!

I would hope "they" or him or her would judge me based on my actions and not my beliefs. Infinite reward or punishment for finite actions is illogical. If that is how the afterlife works it is not worth my mental energy and I will do what I do anyway and enjoy the time I have.

 “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
― Anonymous

4.       Without God, where do you get your morality from?

 The same place you do. Most religious folks I know do not consult their sacred text for every moral decision. Morality to me is a combination of treating others the way I want to be treated. Avoiding harm to others and myself and animals and nature. And asking myself if what I do is something EVERYONE else did, would this world be better or worse off?

5.       If there is no God, can we do what we want? Are we free to murder and rape? While good deeds are unrewarded?

Even if there is a god you can do what you want. Believers and non believers murder and rape. Fair secular justice is all we can aim for. Christian believers think those people are worthy of forgiveness solely for believing in Jesus.

 6.       If there is no god, how does your life have any meaning?

 It has meaning because I give it meaning. I feel meaning and love and accomplishment and enjoy the experiences therein.

7.       Where did the universe come from?

 We don't know. But believing god only moves that back one square. Where does god come from?
We learn more about the Big Bang and the Cosmos everyday. I am open to learning more about all of that. Religion? not so much.

8.       What about miracles? What all the people who claim to have a connection with Jesus? What about those who claim to have seen saints or angels?

Bias, delusion, groupthink, confusion, motivated reasoning, false memories, etc. This does not further the religious person's cause because for every person who has had a personal experience justifying their belief there is probably someone else who also had an experience that directly contradicts that. Mormonism (modern prophet) Islam (no prophets after Mohammad) Can not both be true. But both sides have miracles as their claim.

"Miracles are culturally accepted false beliefs."

9.       What’s your view of Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris?

Not relevant to the issue.

Dawkins is an expert on evolutionary biology. I learned a lot from the "Selfish Gene"

Hitchens - profound speaker especially in debate format.

Harris- fascinating information from his perspective on neurology. His book "Free Will" made me a more compassionate person.

10.   If there is no God, then why does every society have a religion?

We have evolved to patternistic thinking. We look for patterns even when they don't exist, our existential fears are comforted by the notion of a god so we look for notions of a deity to self soothe. Culturally we have also done this to solidify the group. It is pervasive and we indoctrinate our children to it before they even question. Its hard to go against that, so many don't even try, even though I would hazard to guess most harbor doubts.

My Book of Mormon

Still an admitted podcast addict here, the line up changes over time and I move with the topics that interest me. I have slowly moved away from Mormon podcasts. Except when this one came across my field of view the idea made me laugh. An non-believer completely unfamiliar with the LDS church is reading the Book of Mormon, cover to cover stopping to add his impressions along the way.

So many cling to it (I did) giving it merit that if read with any degree of critical thinking is not really merited. At its core the Book of Mormon is racist. Native Americans are dark because of a curse.

Ancient Isrealites came across the ocean and had epic battles of thousands to millions of  people with steel swords. Oh and horses, and elephants.... I don't know that it can be held up at all without severe cherry picking.

With some twitter exchanges with David and a few emails later, I was interviewed.

I think I deserve a cookie for condensing my 'story' into under 2 minutes.

My Book of Mormon Podcast, Episode 16 

Scriptures... Bring it.

I did what I had been admonished to do I turned to the scriptures and really focused, doing my best to remain objective. Here are a few things that were insurmountable.

My first BIG problem, polygamy, lets liken the scriptures unto ourselves:

Doctrine and Covenants 132
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law. 

So Emma needs to agree to the polygamous arrangements of her husband or she will.... DIE.
Wha? WHAT??
That's harsh.
Who will kill her?
THE LORD THY GOD... WILL DESTROY HER.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

If the first give consent? Of course she will give consent! Because if you haven't forgotten from an earlier verse if she does not give consent what will happen?

SHE WILL DIE.
Wha? WHAT??
That's harsh.
Who will kill her?
THE LORD THY GOD... WILL DESTROY HER.

Oh yeah facepalm.... totally give consent (two thumbs way up Emma, I'd pick door number one for consenting to sharing with the other nice ladies!)
But how many women might I be sharing my man with, Emma might ask?


 62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

TEN Emma, the answer is TEN. Or 33... who is counting?


Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi
23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.

Just to sum that up, very briefly: If you dwindle in unbelief you will turn dark. (Is black the word they are looking for?) and not just dark, but also filthy and also loathsome.
Because that is both totally scientific and not at all racist. Wonder if my new crush would appreciate this scripture?

Now if you are strong and procreative in context of faithfulness? You turn fair, previously the text said "white and delightsome" ... This was part of the many, many changes made over the years to the Book of Mormon. For the 'most correct' book on earth its needed a little tweaking.

4 Nephi 1
10 And now, behold, it came to pass that the people of Nephi did wax strong, and did multiply exceedingly fast, and became an exceedingly fair and delightsome people.

Is this right:

2 Nephi 29
 6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

No research on this one yet but.... When Lehi's families got the plates AND before Christ had come AND therefore before there was ANY New Testament... Were they calling it 'the Bible'? Or did Joseph sneak that in to account for extreme skepticism of his work?

What in holy hell are we teaching our daughters?

Moroni 9
9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—

So in regard to daughters being taken PRISONERS and RAPED.  They have lost THEIR chastity.

slow blink

blink...

blink...

THEY LOST CHASTITY and VIRTUE

because they were taken prisoner and raped?

CUE MOMMA BEAR scream!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and I haven't even gotten to, that in the first place, a woman's chastity and virtue is the most precious and dear thing about her ABOVE ALL ELSE?

Dear daughters, your sexuality is amazing. It is not the most important thing about you. It is not, nor ever will be. And if by horrific chance you are raped. You have done nothing wrong yourself. You have been wronged and are in need of nothing but justice.

PS. This scripture is referenced in Personal Progress.... and that is not ok.

Want more? Go here or here.


If I gave you a Book of Mormon. I am sorry, I wasn't really aware, like I thought I was.

"You are more moral than the God that they forced you to believe, that they conned you into accepting" - Matt Dillahunty

A better alternative for morality

I was really angry when I first dived into some of the atheist thinkers, they were just so offensive. Then I had to really examine how come I was offended by their denial of scripture, but not offended by the ill treatment of women IN the scriptures. 

Hello confirmation bias, My name is Janie.

eyes.

opened. 

PS. I'm not done. There is more, including the Old and New Testament. 

Satan, the most confusing part of the plan.

?

There are a few premises to the idea of the adversary that have made me scratch my head....

IF the reason we are here is to receive a body AND...

Be tested. Then there needs to be equilibrium in the force - a side or nature we are fighting against. In the plan of salvation when Lucifer's plan of forced communistic behavior is rejected the war ensues and his followers are cast out and they tempt us to this day. They want our bodies and want to win more souls away from God.

This is the battle between good and evil that we are here to be tested within...


SO if Satan wants to destroy God's plan. And he puts the balance in the testing arena... The BEST thing he could do would be to .....


LEAVE.


Don't show up. Go over to a universe far, far away and take a nap for a LOT of years.  THAT would actually mess God up.

But Satan is motivated enough to play along and be in the minds of 7 billion people ALL the time. (with the help of his motivated minions.  Day in and Day out even at night... tempting us. Hard working fellow.

Then as I heard one teenager put it at the UU meeting one day. If Satan will punish all the bad guys? How does that not make him a good guy?

And, call me callous but I don't even understand the need for a sacrifice. Why exactly could God not just forgive??

What I see now are the merits of comfort when you externalize your own nature.

Praise God for the good and blame Satan for the bad.

Nooooo you didn't just have the urge to punch that person in the face, It was Satan tempting you.

It also answers the awful awful emotions we have when people do TERRIBLE things, like torture babies. We don't want to think that is something a human brain could be capable of, even a damaged one. We find solace in the eternal damnation of the worst of humankind. And reward for the good of others.

These thoughts were in my head when this week, the "historic" broadcast let us know that the LDS church will be equipping missionaries with ipads (some of them) and having some of them spend more time in meetinghouses on the internet sharing the message instead of bothering people door to door. I suspect it is getting difficult to find things for these missionaries to do.

big sigh...

Know what I see now? 70,000 young people who could ROCK THIS WORLD in major humanitarian efforts. Build more wells, deliver more mosquito nets, call up habitat for humanity and say "want about 5000 hard workers full time?" Ask my sister who works at a homeless shelter what could be done with the money about to be spent on ipads.
Call orphanages or schools in impoverished areas and say we will be there tuesday with paint cans and pencils and paper. Start funneling food to the starving right. now. instead of storing it for ourselves?

 Worldwide, there are 50 million deaths annually, and 5 million (10%) of those death are due to childhood malnutrition. And while only 10% of malnourished child die; the remaining 90% suffer lifelong cognitive and physical defects that significantly and severely reduce their earning potential as adults, leading to a cycle in which their reduced future earnings lead to their own children being malnourished as well. We estimate 80,000 active LDS children suffer from chronic malnutrition, and about 900 die from malnutrition every year. A similar number of active LDS children are unable to attend elementary school secondary to lack of funding. from here


We are so caught up in peoples eternal salvation we completely overlook their current suffering.
IF there is a Satan, (no I don't think there is) he is probably beyond happy to see prophets, seers and revelators justify a mall with church funds and see young men and women spend more time inside on the internet. IS religion the haze letting us abandon others?


In defense of the church, I think this is great: http://www.justserve.org/

A more eloquent synopsis here. 

** And no, I don't expect perfection from every organization, we could (and should) all do more, but I don't see many other organizations proclaiming to be the ONE, the TRUE church, with direct revelation through a modern prophet.

by their fruits?

Apostasy and goodbyes.

*** I don't like goodbyes. Oh that is so cliche. Is there a person who likes goodbyes? I can't think of one. I've said goodbye lately to something very big.

So here I am. I'm open about it on facebook (the part of the internet we love to hate). I've been more open to a very select few. And I wrote the most recent personal essay about religion. Now for more specifics:

I have left.
I am no longer Mormon.
Next step is having my name removed, which I will do.
We are going to the UU church, mainly for our children to have a support system.

We identify as agnostic atheist.

For myself, both terms fit, Agnosticism address knowledge.
     Do I KNOW there is a god? No I do not.
           Do I KNOW there is not a god? No I do not.
Agnostic: one who lacks knowledge.

Theism addresses belief.
       I do not have any therefore I am an atheist.
           If I believed there was NO god. I would be an antitheist. I am not that.

Some days I'm apatheist. Just don't overtly care. But other days I'm borderline obsessed with learning more about science, philosophy, basis for morality, and other venues of thought I never before explored while spending time in religion. I have learned SO much and am really loving the journey of exploration at this stage. I could bend your ear about Neil deGrasse Tyson. I have a nerdy crush on him.


So I am an agnostic/atheist post-mormon, soon to be exmormon. whew, wipes forehead... that's a lot of labels. But just one more... If you are wondering about morals, that gives me one more label:

Humanist:

As a philosophy, Humanism contains the following tenets:

• Beliefs need to be tested instead of being accepted solely on faith.
• Reason, evidence, and the scientific method are the best methods of finding solutions to problems and answers to questions.
• Fulfillment, growth, and creativity are emphasized for both the individual and mankind in general.
• A constant search for objective truth, with an understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our perceptions of it, and that scientific ideas should constantly change to better describe the real world.
• An emphasis on making this life the best it can be for everyone, since humanists (especially those who include the word "secular") tend to believe that this life is the only one a person gets.
• A search for a good system of individual, social, and political ethics.
• An ultimate goal of building a better world for ourselves and our descendents by working together.

And since I don't relate to humanism from a religion, that makes me a Secular Humanist.

cue dark scary music...

The people I thought bad things about a few years ago "secular humanists and ungodly atheists"

I am now one of them.

And it is ok.

So there it is, If time ever works out like I'd like (It doesn't) I'll be exploring these thoughts much further. But what I keep thinking about a lot lately is that apostasy doesn't really make for an easy goodbye.

If we had moved out of the ward, or if the ward had split there would have been that appropriate time to say goodbye.

Hugs.

Pats on the back.

"Hope to see you around"

"lets do a playdate"

"Good luck with the new job" 

...

Maybe even a testimony if the time fit to say 'good bye' and 'thank you' to friends. We won't get that opportunity. Friends was the last tiny thread keeping me there. I really even thought I'd want Nola blessed at church. Then I just couldn't and we didn't and there was absolutely no pomp and circumstance to what our last Sunday was. I can't pinpoint the date on a calendar. Maybe that makes goodbye easier. If we had said "THIS WILL BE OUR LAST SUNDAY" There might have been undue sadness.

We just didn't go one Sunday, And didn't go back. The kids already knew there was a lack of belief and we were detoxing what they were taught each Sunday. The lack of belief was handled first. I do feel sad that they didn't get to hug primary teachers and say goodbye. But no matter how I daydream about it I can't see how that would have gone down.

So, Goodbye friends - We are still here, we still try to be good people. I'd still like to hang out and our kids are still good kids. Sorry that there was no easy way to give you a hug and say I'll miss seeing you on Sundays.  

_____________________________

*** this post sat in the unpublished nether-space of the internet for a looooong, loooooong time, me being too stubborn, embarrassed, fearful, worried to hit "Publish" then this post hit the cyberwaves today and gave me courage and chutzpah. It is such a good post I have with permission posted it here - the rest can be found at one of the best blogs I have come across in a long time: Rational Faiths, Three brothers and guest bloggers hammer out some of the idiosyncrasies of Mormonism.

How to guide for dealing with those in a faith crisis: 

1. You must love them.   This may sound like a “no-brainer”, but the majority of people that are in the middle of a faith crisis are afraid of losing friends and family if they discuss with them their doubts and concerns.
2. You must love them.   Didn’t I say that already?  Ya, I did.  You get the idea now.  This cannot be the superficial, smiling in the hallway at church, kind of thing.  It must be a real love.   If you don’t possess that, your friends and family will see right through you.
3. Do not assume that they have been sinning or want to sin and are just looking for excuses to leave the Church. 
4. You must realize that doubt is not a sin.
5. Do not assume that the reason for their doubts is because they’ve stopped reading the scriptures and praying. They most likely have been doing those things for a long time and are still wrestling with doubts.
6. You must realize that there is a good chance they will leave the Church.  That is a tough one, but it is a reality.  
7. Realize that for some, either because of  the need to maintain their own healthy mental well being, or for reasons of integrity, it is better for them to leave the Church. 
8. If your friend or family member leaves the Church, you must honor that decision. 
9. If this is your spouse, do not threaten to leave them.  Family is more important.
10. Understand that most Mormons that leave the Church either become agnostic or atheist.
11. Do not accuse them of reading “anti-Mormon” literature (although this may be true).   People have left the Church after reading a scholarly history, such as Richard Bushman’s Rough Stone Rolling.
12. Understand that if your friend or family member leaves the Church, they will still be morally good people. 
13. They must understand that if they leave the Church, you will still love them and not think less of them. 
14. Do not say something idiotic like, “The Devil has deceived you.”  Your roll is not to call them to repentance or to preach to them.  If you do this, they will probably stop talking to you.
15. Shut up and listen.   Within Mormonism, we often think we have the answers to everything – when we don’t.   Many times our friends and family aren’t looking for answers to questions, they are just looking for someone that will listen to them.
16. You must validate their concerns.   Just because you have not experienced what they are experiencing, doesn’t make their story any less valid.
17. Realize that if they have gotten up the courage to talk to you, that they have spent months, if not years, thinking and worrying.
18. If they do want answers to questions, only answer them if you have a plausible answer.  Don’t make crap up.
19. Understand that your family member or friend has been “trying to make it work” for a long time and has probably been in a lot of pain while trying to work things out.
20. If they do want answers to questions, realize that they have been thinking, reading, and studying about this harder and for a longer period of time than you have.  If you want to help you need to study and read A LOT before you start spilling out crappy answers.
21. If you are reading and studying more in an attempt to help, the reading must be outside the correlated dribble that we get in our Sunday School classes and the “white-washed” dribble Deseret Book produces. 
22. Realize that they are going to be hurt and angry and are going to say things that might offend you.
23. Realize that a crisis won’t be averted through just one or two discussions with you.  Be patient.  It could take months or even years for the person to go through this transition and they probably won’t be the same afterward.  Most either end up with a more mature, nuanced faith, or leave the Church.
24. Be discrete.  They have told you about their doubts and concerns in confidence.   
25.  Realize that all of these suggestions can be difficult to do. Do not take this on unless you are committed to all of the above.