Sometimes people send me sermons.

My response to a sermon a friend asked me to listen to - it can be found here

Sermon from 5/18/14 at Chase Oaks Church.

I sent my notes to the preacher, Jeff Jones, his personal assistant said he would be responding shortly but he never did.

My friend said my notes made her think, I asked her about talking to her preacher about a few things out of curiosity. She said although she had been attending there for five years she had never actually met or talked to the guy. Interesting.

I don't think you need to listen to the sermon necessarily to read the notes but you can if you would like to:

This will be sort of stream of consciousness from notes I took as I listened to the sermon, "Boycott the boycotts". I might use the language of speaking for all non-believers when I don't, just like I know the preacher does not speak for all Christians.

Starts with comparing the church's outlook to DNA. Its interesting to me that religion tries more and more to relate to science. One can respect science and be religious, but any effort to make religion seem scientific when it has no regard for evidence makes me suspect.

"We all have tricky relationships'…. Yes part of the human condition J

Breakdown of Christianity vs. culture…

This is where it kind of lost me logically. It’s a false dichotomy, an "us vs. them",  in-group/out-group thing that is frustrating about religion to begin with.

And it avoids the issue that within the faith that dichotomy exists on its own. Culture is ALL of us in the community, Christians contribute both good and bad to the culture as much if not more so than non-Christians. Especially given the fact that Christians whether they feel marginalized or not, ARE the majority.

"the people of this culture think differently from the bible"

GOOD.  One does need to ask the difficult question: is the bible even worth following? It espouses genocide, infanticide, rape, murder and slavery. The atonement of Jesus bypasses the question of could a loving parent deity not just forgive? why not? Why demand a blood sacrifice? Many non theists today are not unfamiliar with the bible. They don't abandon it to sin, they looked at it, examined it closely and reject it due to its own lack of merit. Christians don't need to bear a burden of exposing us to the bible. The claims of Christianity are already accessible.

Scientifically, markers of well-being improve the less religious a society is.

Then there were questions raised in the sermon about the Christian influence and does it cause the desired influence or more backlash. Then the scriptures were gone to specifically in Corinthians. Detailed description of Corinth and comparisons to Vegas, etc. Which I had many head scratching moments of wondering where the evidence for all these claims were. Do we have any historical evidence for this information of Corinth outside of the bible itself?.. but laying the lack of back up details to the back burner …
- lets move on to the topic. I'll paraphrase but the general idea I got was that this chapter sets up the premise that it is ok to judge and rebuke fellow Christ followers for their sins but the church does not have that jurisdiction outside of the church.

Then the sermon took a dark turn for me in the details of how to rebuke fellow church goers "get in their way"  "get them off the path" (on the path to sin) We may reject you from the fellowship because that IS biblical.. because we love you and don't want you on that path. It felt like a kind way of thought policing the congregation, sic them on each other. I’m sorry but that would keep me out of a congregation even IF I had belief.

Then my notes go on… I jotted down 'individual is king', 'Christ followers are family of god' - 'different standard', my memory is fuzzy but I took some umbrage at this false dichotomy as well.

Of all the "family" references I think it overlooked that many people that consider themselves humanists do look at the entire global community as family. The human family, all with shared trials and issues. In fact many humanists like myself are absolutely appalled at all the social injustices that continues everywhere. The overhead at churches alone could feed so many starving children, help end child pornography, etc. Now I don't want to create my own illogical comparison. Churches do offer community support and help with social causes and freethinking groups have overhead as well. It just seemed to me there were a lot of made up problems in this sermon that aren't even on the docket of the worlds most pressing problems. First world Christian problems if I may borrow a popular phrase.

Then from this point it was, if I could so crassly sum up: Be nice to the world because people are starting to think we are jerks. Its not our job to picket… side story about gay week at Disney, which I think if I had been a gay member of the congregation would have made me very uncomfortable, While there was no degrading of gay people there was an air of "they are the out-group" to that example. And it was noble of Disney to treat them as guests. Which, while that is absolutely true. We need to move on from that even being a conversation. Gay people are just people. Plain and simple, they don’t need anyone's ire or noble "I'm pointing out that we aren't pointing you out because we want to be good Christians"

Then admonitions to engage culture vs. fighting the culture. Increase your opportunities to have influence. Life is better when you follow what god has approved (ignoring for a moment that even across Christianity that can't be agreed on), Infiltrate and influence.. live so that people want to know where your peace comes from so they ask what your reason for hope is.

This is where I have a few things to say about that:

1. Christians already have vast influence in culture, schools, politics, and the market.

2. You put a lot of pressure on your congregants to exude happiness at all times, they have been challenged to represent Christianity with their glowing stories so that others will see their reasons for hope. There were people listening with very real problems and probably some with depression or other mental illnesses. They don't need the pressure of being the poster child for Christianity.

3. There is also the connotation that non-believers, atheists like myself don't have hope. We can, and do live lives of happiness, our countenance can also be inspiring to others and people can be influenced with our happiness and love even when our basis for that is not rooted in Christianity (or any faith) for that matter.

4. Many Christians speak openly about their faith ad nauseam. It might not be adding to the goal Christians have. Many of the people that are leaving religion (that number is rapidly growing)  are asking very deep, very probing questions. Trite pronouncements of faith and hope and love is not moving the conversation forward.

SO in short, I am very pleased with the concept of showing love more than judgment. Those nuggets I was impressed with but overall I think there was a lack of understanding for the group in which you labeled 'culture' and excluded yourself from being a part of.

It might come as a surprise but to some degree Christians like Westboro Baptists are considered (while completely vile) more intellectually honest. They unabashedly take the Bible at its face value, Christians that move the goalposts, claim truth but speak in vagueness confuse me more.  Address us all as the humans that we are, address your religion with better evidence and that will gain more influence for those not engaging with Christianity anymore.

let me know where I was off base.

Mr Jones talking to the insiders, here. 

Where in the world is Janie...

Oh blogging.... I can't give you up but I often let you down. My mom's story sits there looking at me. I wait for her next installment. She is quite a writer isn't she? I've had to assure people in my life that no she is not making it up. Those are real people, they are/were characters but very very real. I love how her words have brought the stories back to the surface and brought them to life. This past Sunday watching Cosmos -- The part where the ode to the written word of humans is highlighted I thought of my mom's story and was immensely grateful to her for putting it down for me and future family members to read.

So this is my "one year post" Yes its about religion so for those who are sensitive to that topic you can tune out now.

I can't believe I don't have a specific date for the 'last Sunday' we attended church. It was such a long time coming that when we actually stopped it was a non-event in a way. I have a few snapshots in my mind. Like the phone call about a ride to scouts. And me saying "We won't be doing that anymore."

Like for this week/month?

"No like ... ever."

A few last things related to callings dropped off and a few final emails. And then that was about it. The living room and bishop's office sit-downs had already occurred.

In honor of this post, I even looked up my very first email to friends from the nebulous beginning of my questioning:

So I am having a crisis of faith apparently and I think Kyle doesn't know what to say to me anymore - so I have been praying about it and I keep thinking I need to talk about it. Because 1) you are smarter and more learned in the scriptures than I am and 2) I don't think my mumblings would negatively affect your faith.

I've tried to kind of quell my own mumblings but my thoughts get circular on the subject and its frustrating. Then I thought I'd bring it up one day in person - but that may be awkward.  So anyway - its so cliche too - A LDS woman struggling with the topic of polygamy - but I am struggling whether it is cliche or not.

Specifically about Joseph Smith.

And it all really boils down to the fact that my whole life I did not know he had what? 30 wives - to this day I still don't know details - and its very precarious to try to research it online - you know what kind of stuff is online - which I have avoided. 

but through what I feel were honest sources (not anti) I did find more. And it was unsettling. Mainly this point - that he hid the marriage ( to a girl who was only 17) from Emma and quote :

Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage.  He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...”

those words keep echoing in my mind, 

So I tried to let it go and turn to the scriptures only and choked spiritually on section 132 like I have before.

I feel like I could overcome the topic if it didn't seem hidden by the church. How many members today if asked would only know Emma asJoseph's wife - do these other women not deserve recognition - they bore him children... If it was my daughter I would not want her swept under the rug.

I feel like I can't move away from this and when "Joseph Smith" is said in church I ache. I mean if a man did that in the ward right now he'd be ostracized.

on a similar vein - Men being able to be sealed after the death of their wife and women not being able to. I can't. get. over. it.

anyway. I am going to pray more and fast.

I am sorry - feel free to think I am crazy and tell me to take it up with the bishop. 

 Almost like the pain of childbirth, I can't really remember the pain I felt then. I know it was real and deep and agonizing. But I have none of that anymore.
In fact I've come very close to not writing this "anniversary" post at all. But I'm going to do it anyway... what's that they say about an unexamined life...

Questioning in earnest Jan of 2011, Open disaffection August 2012, Left sometime February 2013, Resignation (Names removed) June 2013

So where am I now? where are we as a family?

Me:

To answer the oft asked question... so what do you believe now? I took that question seriously when posed to me and I started really diving into what it was that excited me. I have found such a renewed interest in science, specifically scientific skepticism. Found the old copy of Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Dove headfirst into some great science podcasts and discovered to my delight there is a vast network of modern skeptics that work to promote the beauty of science and the benefit of critical thinking.

In the social adrift state after leaving the church my natural inclination was to turn to the many crunchy mom groups and natural birth community groups. I have found dear friends in those circles.

Sadly though, I noticed the trend emerge that many things were still dogma based. A set of "rules" that were incontrovertibly true to many in these circles. Science denial often trumps when certain topics come up (vaccines, homeopathy, diet extremism, etc.) I felt I had in a sense jumped from the frying pan into the fire.

One night at dinner with a very cool friend who felt somewhat abandoned by a birth network she was a part of for political reasons she said "I thought one day instead of making myself fit in a place, I'll make my own damn place."

Brilliance!  I was a person with a foot in two worlds. A new found skeptic thirsting for science but still the babywearing extended breastfeeder who had two babies born out of the hospital. So I worked to find my own place to fit. And I started the Crunchy Skeptics group on facebook. It has helped me come in contact with some absolutely marvelous people. I've made wonderful new friends and have some fantastic people as admins. Several scientists, doctors, nurses, journalists, midwives, birth professionals, and more offer support and advice in the group. We chew articles up and debate the real data. We know logical fallacies and point them out readily. I have found the convos there to be unparalleled to most online groups. I know its *just* facebook but its really been a fantastic way for me to focus my time and effort doing what I love: chatting.

Us as a family:

We are now attending Fellowship of Freethought (meets once a month). Always interesting topics and the kids learn some great things about science or the natural world in their classes.
We are hoping to send the oldest three to Camp Quest this summer and Kyle and I will be volunteers.
We are all super excited to be watching the remake of the Cosmos series. This fuels my Neil deGrasse Tyson fangirling which makes everyone only roll their eyes a little bit more at me.
We are going camping with new friends again this weekend.
Wow... Sundays actually spent relaxing. FOR. THE. WIN.


Over the past couple of years I have felt some of the most difficult pain ever. Only rivaled by the pain of losing my father and brother, and it even encompassed that pain as well. I am so glad to be on the other side of it. I think of people like my husband, my mother, my sister, my mother in law, my older children, a few friends who have just listened to me over and over and over again through all of this. For new friends that I never would have met if not for my path of great change. I am a better person for having such open minded people in my life.

I have also lost many friends. And I am close to the point of forgiveness now. At first I felt rejected, then I rejected the relationships myself. It just is what it is. Its almost like a color. I like the color of those friendships very much, I just don't know quite how to incorporate them into the decor of my life now. I hope some day I/we will figure that out.

I was asked the other day if you could go back and not know what you know about the church would you?

At first I would have said yes.

Now? not only no. but hell no.

My life is richer for all the things I've learned.

PS. In other news, Kyle's hair has gotten a lot longer and his vas deferens shorter ;) 

Map out your questioning.

I have new advice. Over time, since I have been open about my disaffection, some have in confidence shared that they are also doubting the church's claims. They wonder what resources might help. I generally share the sources that I found to be credible or at least not intensely slanted in either direction for or against the church.

Now that its not quite so emotional, I have started to think back over the map of my own apostasy and I wish I could do it over again. So here goes for time machine advice to myself:

First, Deeply consider one question:

IF there is evidence that the church is not what it claims to be, do you want to know?

For me the answer is yes because the truth is that important to me that I have a grasp on it even if it does not meld with what I want to be true. But if you can not say the same, do not go any further. When you stumble on info like Joseph Smith sent men on missions and married their wives while they were away. Or that he had sex with other women then when found out, claimed divine intervention, or that there are multiple versions of the first vision. IF those do not sit well in your mind, or you are capable of doubting the sources. Then by all means do that. Do exactly what Uctdorf says and doubt the doubts.

If like me, you must know, you want information from as many direct sources as possible and trained historians. Then here is the advice from my perspective:


1. Stop and breathe, decide in your mind that no matter what, you will take the process slowly. Read and investigate voraciously but continue to live as you are, no brash decision to stop going to church or activities. I think it actually helped my leaving that I went to church every Sunday during my disaffection and research.

2. Value objectivism over emotion. Religion is emotional and deals with our deepest existential fears. Table those emotions as best you can.

3. DO NOT CONTINUE ON WITH LDS MATERIAL at this point. Stop and start somewhere else:
-Get a very firm grip on logical fallacies and how to formulate an argument without flaws.
-Investigate the basic debates on deities.
-Decide your personal parameters for investigating truth.

4. Go back to the scriptures with the expectation that the creator of all the universe be somewhat logical. This site has scriptures organized by topic to aid your reading. Consider how you would communicate with your children and compare the information in the scriptures, including slavery and racism. In other words go read your scriptures but let critical thinking trump your feelings.

5. When you have a working knowledge of logical fallacies and investigating claims rationally return to investigating general claims of Mormonism but not church history yet. I'd start with rationalizing the plan of salvation: Pre-existence

6. Read books by non-believers and how they arrived there.
Losing my Religion by Lobdell
Deconverted by Seth Andrews
Why People Believe Weird Things by Shermer

7. Get into science.
StarTalk Radio
Big Think
The most astounding fact
Storytelling of Science
Radiolab

8. Now you are ready to Dig into church history.

9. Make your list of reasons to stay and reasons to leave, defend both positions logically to yourself.

10. Share with loved ones slowly and carefully as you feel ready. Preface conversations with the hope that the conversation can remain objective. "We discuss without tearful testimony sharing"


I went through my journey backwards, I was full of emotion and anger and had no clue about logical arguments so while I flopped like a dying fish - unable to recapture belief but fearful of the supernatural everything in my life was scary. I waited for signs that would never come. Every flat tire or tight paycheck was a sign of doom that I was a bad person just for questioning. A pregnancy laden with fear because surely I would be punished or have "blessings withheld".

Paradigm shifts are extremely difficult, they can only be handled rationally or you will be tugged at from every single direction with your free will abused with emotion, personal history, relationships, love and want.

Reason, Observation and Experience — the Holy Trinity of Science — have taught us that happiness is the only good; that the time to be happy is now, and the way to be happy is to make others so. This is enough for us. In this belief we are content to live and die. If by any possibility the existence of a power superior to, and independent of, nature shall be demonstrated, there will then be time enough to kneel. Until then, let us stand erect. - Robert Ingersoll

Scriptures... Bring it.

I did what I had been admonished to do I turned to the scriptures and really focused, doing my best to remain objective. Here are a few things that were insurmountable.

My first BIG problem, polygamy, lets liken the scriptures unto ourselves:

Doctrine and Covenants 132
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law. 

So Emma needs to agree to the polygamous arrangements of her husband or she will.... DIE.
Wha? WHAT??
That's harsh.
Who will kill her?
THE LORD THY GOD... WILL DESTROY HER.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

If the first give consent? Of course she will give consent! Because if you haven't forgotten from an earlier verse if she does not give consent what will happen?

SHE WILL DIE.
Wha? WHAT??
That's harsh.
Who will kill her?
THE LORD THY GOD... WILL DESTROY HER.

Oh yeah facepalm.... totally give consent (two thumbs way up Emma, I'd pick door number one for consenting to sharing with the other nice ladies!)
But how many women might I be sharing my man with, Emma might ask?


 62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

TEN Emma, the answer is TEN. Or 33... who is counting?


Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi
23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.

Just to sum that up, very briefly: If you dwindle in unbelief you will turn dark. (Is black the word they are looking for?) and not just dark, but also filthy and also loathsome.
Because that is both totally scientific and not at all racist. Wonder if my new crush would appreciate this scripture?

Now if you are strong and procreative in context of faithfulness? You turn fair, previously the text said "white and delightsome" ... This was part of the many, many changes made over the years to the Book of Mormon. For the 'most correct' book on earth its needed a little tweaking.

4 Nephi 1
10 And now, behold, it came to pass that the people of Nephi did wax strong, and did multiply exceedingly fast, and became an exceedingly fair and delightsome people.

Is this right:

2 Nephi 29
 6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

No research on this one yet but.... When Lehi's families got the plates AND before Christ had come AND therefore before there was ANY New Testament... Were they calling it 'the Bible'? Or did Joseph sneak that in to account for extreme skepticism of his work?

What in holy hell are we teaching our daughters?

Moroni 9
9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—

So in regard to daughters being taken PRISONERS and RAPED.  They have lost THEIR chastity.

slow blink

blink...

blink...

THEY LOST CHASTITY and VIRTUE

because they were taken prisoner and raped?

CUE MOMMA BEAR scream!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and I haven't even gotten to, that in the first place, a woman's chastity and virtue is the most precious and dear thing about her ABOVE ALL ELSE?

Dear daughters, your sexuality is amazing. It is not the most important thing about you. It is not, nor ever will be. And if by horrific chance you are raped. You have done nothing wrong yourself. You have been wronged and are in need of nothing but justice.

PS. This scripture is referenced in Personal Progress.... and that is not ok.

Want more? Go here or here.


If I gave you a Book of Mormon. I am sorry, I wasn't really aware, like I thought I was.

"You are more moral than the God that they forced you to believe, that they conned you into accepting" - Matt Dillahunty

A better alternative for morality

I was really angry when I first dived into some of the atheist thinkers, they were just so offensive. Then I had to really examine how come I was offended by their denial of scripture, but not offended by the ill treatment of women IN the scriptures. 

Hello confirmation bias, My name is Janie.

eyes.

opened. 

PS. I'm not done. There is more, including the Old and New Testament. 

If you could just be mad with me too...

When I started reaching out here and there to people to talk about my 'faith' issues. I noticed a trend. No one would be mad with me. There was this invisible wall, a pedestal, so to say, where "The Church" got put up and they could only try to help me via spin if it didn't make the church look bad.

I didn't really want answers ALL the time. I got to the point where I knew those weren't really possible. I just wanted someone else to be mad too. I needed to know that it wasn't all an ivory tower.

Be mad with me! This is infuriating. I could stay if maybe we weren't stepford wiving this pretending all is great, when it is not. There is value here but we have tarnished it.

When I would say... babies right now are dying from 100% curable diseases and malnutrition. Babies will be born to malnourished mothers, live only knowing hunger and die in childhood only ever having known pain. That will happen now in 2013! And Gods one true church in the 'fullness of times' built a billion dollar mall. That should piss off logical people. I think it would piss off Jesus, When I try to picture myself believing in a savior again he's tearing up shit at City Creek mall angry as hell.

But no one was mad. They talked about asset protection, portfolios, future endeavors of the church, investing, using the profit for more good... It was like I had gone crazy, or I was the last sane one in the room.

"I've been to City Creek. Its nice"

nuclear facepalm.

Thing is, I don't care what businesses do. I care what churches do. We gave tithing to do GOOD. To build houses of the Lord and what not and for humanitarian aid. Every relief fund I had nothing left for I didn't feel so bad. I was giving to an organization who knew how 'to do what is right and let the consequence follow."

When I found out about Joseph Smith having 33 wives. I was flaber.gasted! This can't be, surely people who have never been in the waters of baptism or sat through four years of early morning seminary can't know more about Joseph Smith than me...

Nope oh wait a second. They totally do.

But no one from a blindly faithful perspective could be mad with me. Even when I asked parents to their face "would you be ok with your fourteen year old marrying the prophet even if she didn't want to?"

Except for one exception I can think of - I got either blank stares, redirection or a reluctant yes.

Two roads diverged in a wood.... And I'm taking whichever one you are not taking.

I began to see 'faith' for what it really was: the ability to abandon reason and even good moral sense to preserve what you want to believe.

No one if they weren't conditioned to think otherwise could read a report (names removed) of what Joseph Smith did and be ok with it.

Would the body of the church have voted to build a mall?

Or how about the scriptures? Rape, incest, genocide, slavery. Most bad things in the bible were done by God.

Then there is my new frustration. Sandy Hook happened because we took "God out of school"

oh my stars above.

God is so vindictive that if he doesn't get praise all the time in all locations he totally stays his hand in the face of unadulterated violence?  If I did what god did, I knew a man was walking toward a school with guns and ammo and intent to kill and did NOTHING. What would society think of me? I think those would be criminal charges am I right?

God's way is - "I know that child will be raped. I will wait until that is over then one day, one day I will punish that perpetrator."

That is how it goes. God can never ever ever ever lose with the faithful. Good things were because of god. Bad things were because:

God is not bad, people are.
He is protecting free will.
He can't show himself that would destroy faith.
It was a trial for you.
Unanswered prayers are blessings too.
His ways are not our ways
He works in mysterious ways

So we look for the tender mercies and table all the times we are ignored. We pray for cell destruction and re-growth for the ones we love with cancer. But we know better than to pray for the amputee to re-grow a limb. We know that doesn't happen. I mean, we aren't silly.

Things came to a head one day for me. You can mess with me god but don't mess with my kids. One of mine was feeling particularly vulnerable and rejected. I won't share much of the details beyond that but to aid this situation we needed a little intervention. I prayed.

I prayed hard, hard, hard.

We need to get out of this, their tender feelings are on the line lord. Anything. Let the power go out in the building. Anything we just need to go and save face simultaneously.

Nothing happened.

The disappointment was faced and we left when we were supposed to, both of us silently cried the way home.

I got past it that night when I realized. I was only talking to myself.

And it was totally liberating. Sad yes. But there was immense peace to realizing I wasn't being ignored. I was not unworthy. There were no more mental gymnastics to do trying to understand why it was a "miracle" that an acquaintance found her nordstroms gift card but god's will that babies are starving and being shot.

This life was mine. No one was judging me from the sky or Kolob. I had one life to live and I wasn't wasting it anymore begging for help that may not come.

"for with god all things are possible" except - well, world hunger and jamming the guns of school shooters.

Satan, the most confusing part of the plan.

?

There are a few premises to the idea of the adversary that have made me scratch my head....

IF the reason we are here is to receive a body AND...

Be tested. Then there needs to be equilibrium in the force - a side or nature we are fighting against. In the plan of salvation when Lucifer's plan of forced communistic behavior is rejected the war ensues and his followers are cast out and they tempt us to this day. They want our bodies and want to win more souls away from God.

This is the battle between good and evil that we are here to be tested within...


SO if Satan wants to destroy God's plan. And he puts the balance in the testing arena... The BEST thing he could do would be to .....


LEAVE.


Don't show up. Go over to a universe far, far away and take a nap for a LOT of years.  THAT would actually mess God up.

But Satan is motivated enough to play along and be in the minds of 7 billion people ALL the time. (with the help of his motivated minions.  Day in and Day out even at night... tempting us. Hard working fellow.

Then as I heard one teenager put it at the UU meeting one day. If Satan will punish all the bad guys? How does that not make him a good guy?

And, call me callous but I don't even understand the need for a sacrifice. Why exactly could God not just forgive??

What I see now are the merits of comfort when you externalize your own nature.

Praise God for the good and blame Satan for the bad.

Nooooo you didn't just have the urge to punch that person in the face, It was Satan tempting you.

It also answers the awful awful emotions we have when people do TERRIBLE things, like torture babies. We don't want to think that is something a human brain could be capable of, even a damaged one. We find solace in the eternal damnation of the worst of humankind. And reward for the good of others.

These thoughts were in my head when this week, the "historic" broadcast let us know that the LDS church will be equipping missionaries with ipads (some of them) and having some of them spend more time in meetinghouses on the internet sharing the message instead of bothering people door to door. I suspect it is getting difficult to find things for these missionaries to do.

big sigh...

Know what I see now? 70,000 young people who could ROCK THIS WORLD in major humanitarian efforts. Build more wells, deliver more mosquito nets, call up habitat for humanity and say "want about 5000 hard workers full time?" Ask my sister who works at a homeless shelter what could be done with the money about to be spent on ipads.
Call orphanages or schools in impoverished areas and say we will be there tuesday with paint cans and pencils and paper. Start funneling food to the starving right. now. instead of storing it for ourselves?

 Worldwide, there are 50 million deaths annually, and 5 million (10%) of those death are due to childhood malnutrition. And while only 10% of malnourished child die; the remaining 90% suffer lifelong cognitive and physical defects that significantly and severely reduce their earning potential as adults, leading to a cycle in which their reduced future earnings lead to their own children being malnourished as well. We estimate 80,000 active LDS children suffer from chronic malnutrition, and about 900 die from malnutrition every year. A similar number of active LDS children are unable to attend elementary school secondary to lack of funding. from here


We are so caught up in peoples eternal salvation we completely overlook their current suffering.
IF there is a Satan, (no I don't think there is) he is probably beyond happy to see prophets, seers and revelators justify a mall with church funds and see young men and women spend more time inside on the internet. IS religion the haze letting us abandon others?


In defense of the church, I think this is great: http://www.justserve.org/

A more eloquent synopsis here. 

** And no, I don't expect perfection from every organization, we could (and should) all do more, but I don't see many other organizations proclaiming to be the ONE, the TRUE church, with direct revelation through a modern prophet.

by their fruits?

Apostasy and goodbyes.

*** I don't like goodbyes. Oh that is so cliche. Is there a person who likes goodbyes? I can't think of one. I've said goodbye lately to something very big.

So here I am. I'm open about it on facebook (the part of the internet we love to hate). I've been more open to a very select few. And I wrote the most recent personal essay about religion. Now for more specifics:

I have left.
I am no longer Mormon.
Next step is having my name removed, which I will do.
We are going to the UU church, mainly for our children to have a support system.

We identify as agnostic atheist.

For myself, both terms fit, Agnosticism address knowledge.
     Do I KNOW there is a god? No I do not.
           Do I KNOW there is not a god? No I do not.
Agnostic: one who lacks knowledge.

Theism addresses belief.
       I do not have any therefore I am an atheist.
           If I believed there was NO god. I would be an antitheist. I am not that.

Some days I'm apatheist. Just don't overtly care. But other days I'm borderline obsessed with learning more about science, philosophy, basis for morality, and other venues of thought I never before explored while spending time in religion. I have learned SO much and am really loving the journey of exploration at this stage. I could bend your ear about Neil deGrasse Tyson. I have a nerdy crush on him.


So I am an agnostic/atheist post-mormon, soon to be exmormon. whew, wipes forehead... that's a lot of labels. But just one more... If you are wondering about morals, that gives me one more label:

Humanist:

As a philosophy, Humanism contains the following tenets:

• Beliefs need to be tested instead of being accepted solely on faith.
• Reason, evidence, and the scientific method are the best methods of finding solutions to problems and answers to questions.
• Fulfillment, growth, and creativity are emphasized for both the individual and mankind in general.
• A constant search for objective truth, with an understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our perceptions of it, and that scientific ideas should constantly change to better describe the real world.
• An emphasis on making this life the best it can be for everyone, since humanists (especially those who include the word "secular") tend to believe that this life is the only one a person gets.
• A search for a good system of individual, social, and political ethics.
• An ultimate goal of building a better world for ourselves and our descendents by working together.

And since I don't relate to humanism from a religion, that makes me a Secular Humanist.

cue dark scary music...

The people I thought bad things about a few years ago "secular humanists and ungodly atheists"

I am now one of them.

And it is ok.

So there it is, If time ever works out like I'd like (It doesn't) I'll be exploring these thoughts much further. But what I keep thinking about a lot lately is that apostasy doesn't really make for an easy goodbye.

If we had moved out of the ward, or if the ward had split there would have been that appropriate time to say goodbye.

Hugs.

Pats on the back.

"Hope to see you around"

"lets do a playdate"

"Good luck with the new job" 

...

Maybe even a testimony if the time fit to say 'good bye' and 'thank you' to friends. We won't get that opportunity. Friends was the last tiny thread keeping me there. I really even thought I'd want Nola blessed at church. Then I just couldn't and we didn't and there was absolutely no pomp and circumstance to what our last Sunday was. I can't pinpoint the date on a calendar. Maybe that makes goodbye easier. If we had said "THIS WILL BE OUR LAST SUNDAY" There might have been undue sadness.

We just didn't go one Sunday, And didn't go back. The kids already knew there was a lack of belief and we were detoxing what they were taught each Sunday. The lack of belief was handled first. I do feel sad that they didn't get to hug primary teachers and say goodbye. But no matter how I daydream about it I can't see how that would have gone down.

So, Goodbye friends - We are still here, we still try to be good people. I'd still like to hang out and our kids are still good kids. Sorry that there was no easy way to give you a hug and say I'll miss seeing you on Sundays.  

_____________________________

*** this post sat in the unpublished nether-space of the internet for a looooong, loooooong time, me being too stubborn, embarrassed, fearful, worried to hit "Publish" then this post hit the cyberwaves today and gave me courage and chutzpah. It is such a good post I have with permission posted it here - the rest can be found at one of the best blogs I have come across in a long time: Rational Faiths, Three brothers and guest bloggers hammer out some of the idiosyncrasies of Mormonism.

How to guide for dealing with those in a faith crisis: 

1. You must love them.   This may sound like a “no-brainer”, but the majority of people that are in the middle of a faith crisis are afraid of losing friends and family if they discuss with them their doubts and concerns.
2. You must love them.   Didn’t I say that already?  Ya, I did.  You get the idea now.  This cannot be the superficial, smiling in the hallway at church, kind of thing.  It must be a real love.   If you don’t possess that, your friends and family will see right through you.
3. Do not assume that they have been sinning or want to sin and are just looking for excuses to leave the Church. 
4. You must realize that doubt is not a sin.
5. Do not assume that the reason for their doubts is because they’ve stopped reading the scriptures and praying. They most likely have been doing those things for a long time and are still wrestling with doubts.
6. You must realize that there is a good chance they will leave the Church.  That is a tough one, but it is a reality.  
7. Realize that for some, either because of  the need to maintain their own healthy mental well being, or for reasons of integrity, it is better for them to leave the Church. 
8. If your friend or family member leaves the Church, you must honor that decision. 
9. If this is your spouse, do not threaten to leave them.  Family is more important.
10. Understand that most Mormons that leave the Church either become agnostic or atheist.
11. Do not accuse them of reading “anti-Mormon” literature (although this may be true).   People have left the Church after reading a scholarly history, such as Richard Bushman’s Rough Stone Rolling.
12. Understand that if your friend or family member leaves the Church, they will still be morally good people. 
13. They must understand that if they leave the Church, you will still love them and not think less of them. 
14. Do not say something idiotic like, “The Devil has deceived you.”  Your roll is not to call them to repentance or to preach to them.  If you do this, they will probably stop talking to you.
15. Shut up and listen.   Within Mormonism, we often think we have the answers to everything – when we don’t.   Many times our friends and family aren’t looking for answers to questions, they are just looking for someone that will listen to them.
16. You must validate their concerns.   Just because you have not experienced what they are experiencing, doesn’t make their story any less valid.
17. Realize that if they have gotten up the courage to talk to you, that they have spent months, if not years, thinking and worrying.
18. If they do want answers to questions, only answer them if you have a plausible answer.  Don’t make crap up.
19. Understand that your family member or friend has been “trying to make it work” for a long time and has probably been in a lot of pain while trying to work things out.
20. If they do want answers to questions, realize that they have been thinking, reading, and studying about this harder and for a longer period of time than you have.  If you want to help you need to study and read A LOT before you start spilling out crappy answers.
21. If you are reading and studying more in an attempt to help, the reading must be outside the correlated dribble that we get in our Sunday School classes and the “white-washed” dribble Deseret Book produces. 
22. Realize that they are going to be hurt and angry and are going to say things that might offend you.
23. Realize that a crisis won’t be averted through just one or two discussions with you.  Be patient.  It could take months or even years for the person to go through this transition and they probably won’t be the same afterward.  Most either end up with a more mature, nuanced faith, or leave the Church.
24. Be discrete.  They have told you about their doubts and concerns in confidence.   
25.  Realize that all of these suggestions can be difficult to do. Do not take this on unless you are committed to all of the above.