Further thoughts on that topic.

I think what also sparked my need to get things off my chest was a blogpost over at Joni Martin's blog, she is living different faiths for 30 days to debunk misinformation and explore God from a new perspective - which by the way has absolutely fascinated me! - she even blogged about my fascination here.

The gist of the blog was tenets of Islam and the first line was "No new souls" and I was huh? wha? and then as I read I thought well yes we believe that too - if we were all together in the pre-existence - there are no new souls being created for this earth. So it's exactly the same as what we believe I just never heard it from the "No new Souls" perspective.

I think we talk about as LDS women 'doing hard things' a lot. But being so bold as to add "having more children or adopting children" in the hard things list gets people angry and defensive.

My litmus tests for our reasons for not having more children is could I say those reasons to the face of a soul waiting to come to earth?

I picture a long, long hallway of doors and a spirit hoping for a body and going to door after door much like Joseph and Mary did.

If a spirit comes to us, Kyle and I need to be able to say we can't take you because of X,Y,and Z and be completely comfortable with that decision.

If we have a testimony of the Plan of Salvation and understand that spirits need bodies and understand the goal of the adversary how can we not have the STRONGEST of convictions on this topic?

If Satan has to work hard to get a soul away from the Gospel how much easier is it to just insure they are never born into the Gospel to begin with?

I can't bear the thought of sending away someone who then ends up in horrible circumstances here. What if I say no and a girl ends up born into the Taliban, or a boy ends up a boy soldier in a war torn country?

What if a girl ends up the daughter of a pageant mom and has horrible things done to her for vanity's sake?

I'd feel silly one day finding out someone was supposed to be in our family and I just didn't want to deal with puking, and back pain and feeling like my pelvis was going to split right in two.

I think faith has to precede the miracle on this one. How does permanently closing off the means for God to open your womb possibly limit miracles? When we took the leap of faith after Cora Kyle's career wasn't near recovered from the recession. - By week 10 of the pregnancy with PJ his company had a new position for him at a much better salary. I feel that was a blessing based on our faith.

Before I felt this way I wanted to lean on the two things I hear most on the topic to justify our choice to be "done":

The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. It should be considered only if 1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health

Every pregnancy jeopardizes life or health. Even with the best provider, diet, and plan, pregnancy and childbirth is dangerous. If I want an excuse not to do it - there are plenty.

and the "its between, you, your husband, and the Lord." aka. Its no one's business how many kids we have.

very true it absolutely is NO ONE's business.

But in that equation (you, spouse, & the Lord)- it shouldn't be overlooked that one of those involved paid the ultimate price for your body and soul and he kindly requests that you offer the same opportunity you have had to other souls.

The Lord hasn't changed this request since Adam and Eve.

The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God's eternal plan.

I also think that we put special emphasis on chastity in youth to protect procreative powers. But we are ok with throwing away those powers when our family size is "just right".

I take no offense with women who are done bearing children who have taken the decision seriously but the flippant attitude of "oh I am done - yuck -- being pregnant sucked - so not doing that again." is dangerous. There are entire books on why pregnancy sucks. I have heard flippant remarks from Relief society teachers about them not having anymore kids for such and such reason and saw many heads nod in agreement - like oh yeah it does suck - I'm done too.

Now I do totally believe that there are most definitely situations where couples should not have children. There are cases of health reasons/ mental health reasons and possibly even financial hardships that should be taken into consideration. When a couple brings a child into the world without stability that is just as dangerous as not bringing them when one can.

I also find it more than a little shocking to be so firmly in the minority in my opinion.

At Time out for Women - one speaker talked about making sure our children were non-conformers. And he mostly meant against the world. But I sat there thinking what about when you are a non-conformer amongst fellow believers?

I am not the only one taking notice of this trend - Four seems the magic number for LDS families these days. Very, very spiritual sisters that I have tremendous respect for have stopped at 4 and are 100% ok with their decision. I'd love to know more about how they arrived at that peace. But that would be prying. So I ramble on here.

It seems that peace of letting God choose your family size has left the Church and has been taken up by sisters of other faiths. My three favorite blogs for inspiration about big families are not LDS. They are women who wholeheartedly have faith in "multiply and replenish the earth" they don't have easy pregnancies either, but they obviously have been blessed to handle the trials and they teach others a long the way, I sit at their sides and learn via the internet but can't help but wish they were sitting with me at church so I wouldn't feel like the only one.

Smockity Frocks

Raising Olives

In a shoe

** you should totally see how 'in a shoe' manages her family in a small three bedroom home - I think it is totally awesome! Their bunk beds are way cool!

Amazing post here that says what I feel -- much better than I could even say:

taken from Women in the Scriptures

"It made my heart ache and I really began to re-examine my testimony of the gospel. If the gospel was true, and there really were hosts of spirits waiting for their turn at mortality, then nothing else in my life would compare with the opportunity to help God clothe those spirits in their immortal tabernacles. Bodies, which because of the atonement, would all become immortal and could one day house Gods and Goddesses. Was there anything greater I could do with my “plans” that that? Yet, if the gospel wasn’t true and giving birth was really just giving existence to the non-existent, as so many in the world believe, then consecrating my fertility to a non-existent deity was the stupidest thing I could ever do.

Did I really have a testimony of the Plan of Salvation? Was God really serious when He said “be fruitful” or was He just giving a suggestion? Did I really believe God when He promised that “children are a heritage from the Lord? (Psalms 127:3)” Did I truly believe?

I felt my spirit yielding but still my mind pushed back against God.

I continued to wrestle.

A few weeks later as I was swimming laps at the gym I was pondering over my choices when a thought hit me so powerfully that I began to cry mid-stroke (yes, such a thing is possible) as the spirit rushed over me.

“It is all based on your willingness,” the still small voice whispered, “Are you willing to be a handmaiden of the Lord?” "